**************** Thu, 21 Oct 93 21:11:06 PDT **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: DKM Mailing List -------- There are spoilers. I hope this works for people :). >My big question from the Last Dancer is exactly what happens when >"Johnny Johnny" is trying to get back to Trent. We know JJ doesn't >make it back. (Is he destroyed, or is he sitting around for a later >book?) Does this mean that Trent is now "imageless" again, or was >it just a (admittedly very important) copy that was lost? It was just a copy. As for what happens to the Image sent out... well, it *is* the Church of His Return. Want to bet that the message is intercepted, and Trent is returned to life (as either an AI, or some other mechanism)? Sean. **************** Fri, 22 Oct 93 07:13:19 EDT **************** From: solomon foster To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: DKM Mailing List -------- Here are Last Dancer spoilers. I hope this works for people :). Sean writes: >Sol writes: >>My big question from the Last Dancer is exactly what happens when >>"Johnny Johnny" is trying to get back to Trent. We know JJ doesn't >>make it back. (Is he destroyed, or is he sitting around for a later >>book?) Does this mean that Trent is now "imageless" again, or was >>it just a (admittedly very important) copy that was lost? > >It was just a copy. That was my interpretation, too, but I've talked to people who thought it was more than a copy. Do you have proof from the text? >As for what happens to the Image sent out... well, >it *is* the Church of His Return. Want to bet that the message is >intercepted, and Trent is returned to life (as either an AI, or some >other mechanism)? Heh. I don't take sucker bets. I still think he will come back twice, like (shudder) Jesus. -Sol **************** Fri, 22 Oct 93 20:36:54 EDT **************** From: solomon foster To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: DKM Mailing List -------- This is my rough draft intro. (Sorry, those of you who have already seen this.) Comments would be appreciated. Welcome to the Daniel Keys Moran mailing list! Despite the name, the subject of conversation is all of the works of DKM. How do you use the list? To send mail to the entire list, send it to continuing-time@umich.edu When replying to a message from the list, you can either send the reply to the entire list or to only the person who sent it. (How to do each is dependent on your mailer, I think.) It is probably not a good idea to send it to both the list and the original poster, as the poster will typically then receive the message twice. Administrative requests (such as asking to be dropped from the list) should go to continuing-time-request@umich.edu Conventions: This is a fledging mailing list, so we don't have any established conventions yet. Please use standard e-mail quoting (and such) if possible. I suggest the use of the following (rather natural) abrevations, mostly because I am lazy, and hate spelling Armageddon: DKM: Daniel Keys Moran AB: Armageddon Blues EE: Emerald Eyes LR: The Long Run LD: The Last Dancer Any other suggestions? Bibliography: Here's what I know of Daniel Keys Moran's works: story in Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine (IAsfm), circa 1982. This is an early version of the first section of AB. very short story in IAsfm, circa 1983. Not sure if this connects to anything else DKM has done; I didn't find it particularly memorable. "Realtime", IAsfm, August 1984. (Cowritten with Gladys Prebehalla.) This is a sequel of sorts to AB. The main charcter is a Praxcelis, and many of the cyberpunk terms and ideas later to show up in the Continuing Time appear here. At least one mention of the Walks-Far Empire. (See reference near the top of the chart/map at the end of LD.) Armageddon Blues, circa 1986 (?). Indirectly related to the Continuing Time (again, see the chart/map in LD), and an excellant book in its own right. Emerald Eyes, 1988. The Ring, circa 1988 (?). Based on a movie script by somebody or the other; that, in turn, was loosely based on the Ring of the Nibelung. Very loosely connected to AB; the tribe (Silvereyes?) from there shows up. Published only in hardcover. The Long Run, 1989. The Last Dancer, 1993. Anyone know anything else? I also have the list of Continuing Time stuff posted to Usenet last year; if anyone wants a copy, let me know. -Sol **************** Sat, 23 Oct 93 02:03 EDT **************** From: "josh kaderlan" To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Wow. -------- I just finished "The Last Dancer," and these are just my random impressions... DKM has definitely come back from his hiatus with a bang. Right now, I'd have to say that TLD is easily one of the best books of the year, and probably makes my all-time Top Ten list. Was anyone else bored by Dvan's Tale? I enjoyed it at times, but at others I was just begging for DKM to GET ON WITH IT. As well, the ending left me a (tiny) bit disappointed. Any reactions? **************** Sat, 23 Oct 93 02:06 EDT **************** From: "josh kaderlan" To: continuing-time@umich.edu, colomon@eecs.umich.edu Subject: Re: DKM Mailing List -------- It seemed to me (after having just finished the book) that Trent was not Imageless, but that the clone of JJ which had had the conversation with Denice was temporarily lost. All that DKM says is that that copy of JJ is trapped in a talk-to-me. Remember, Trent and JJ are one and the same, now that Trent's got an inskin. Josh **************** Sat, 23 Oct 93 07:52:50 EDT **************** From: solomon foster To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Wow. (Minor LD Spoilers) -------- Josh Kaderlan writes: >Was anyone else bored by Dvan's Tale? I enjoyed it at times, but at >others I was just begging for DKM to GET ON WITH IT. I've seen a couple of people say this, but must say that I loved it. Those people were human, but their culture was completely alien, making for fascinating reading. Plus learning more about the Zaradin. (United Earth Intelligence, indeed!) >As well, the ending left me a (tiny) bit disappointed. Any reactions? I think this is one of the problems of writing a series of books. If you don't leave some things dangling at the end, why write another book? (Much less another thirty books.) All three Continuing Time books have suffered from this, especially Emerald Eyes, which pretty much continued ten pages or so past the end of the story. Given that we had to leave lots of things hanging, I loved the end. To have Denice declare killing is wrong, then dance, and then kill someone nicely sums up Denice, and brings this round of changes in her life to an end. Which brings up a question of mine: Why is Denice the "Last Dancer"? It seems reasonable to assume any of her descendents could also become Dancers, yet no one we've seen mentioned from the future is one. (Lots of nightfaces, though --- Camber, Ola Blue, Name Storyteller.) -Sol **************** Sat, 23 Oct 93 07:54:05 EDT **************** From: solomon foster To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Trent's "Image" (LD Spoilers) -------- Josh Kaderlan writes: >It seemed to me (after having just finished the book) that Trent was not >Imageless, but that the clone of JJ which had had the conversation with >Denice was temporarily lost. Right; this was also my impression. (Well, I thought the clone was destroyed.) However, when I talked to Bri (hey Bri, post something), he said his impression was that the part of Trent that had been JJ was destroyed. I got to thinking about it, re-read the section, and concluded that my interpretation matched my thoughts about how things worked, but the text itself supported Bri's theory as well as it did mine. Thus my original question . . . >All that DKM says is that that copy of JJ is trapped in a talk-to-me. >Remember, Trent and JJ are one and the same, now that Trent's got an >inskin. Well, not exactly one and the same; after all Trent who was JJ says "I am that part of Trent that used to be Johnny Johnny." More like two parts that much up one whole, which is Trent the Uncatchable. -Sol **************** Sat, 23 Oct 93 16:18 EDT **************** From: "josh kaderlan" To: continuing-time@umich.edu, colomon@eecs.umich.edu Subject: Re: Wow. (Minor LD Spoilers) -------- >Which brings up a question of mine: Why is Denice the "Last Dancer"? >It seems reasonable to assume any of her descendents could also become >Dancers, yet no one we've seen mentioned from the future is one. >(Lots of nightfaces, though --- Camber, Ola Blue, Name Storyteller.) I'm not sure that Denice is the "Last Dancer" the title refers to. I think it's more likely a reference to Gi'Suei'Obodi'Sedon; he's the last Dancer Dvan has to kill (excepting, of course, Say, who he doesn't know about). This brings up another point: who the hell are we supposed to support, Camber or the Name Storyteller? Their whole conflict has gone way over my head. And is the Name Storyteller really the god in the ten-sided temple? I'm a little confused. Josh **************** Sat, 23 Oct 93 22:57:40 EDT **************** From: solomon foster To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Last Dancer (Minor LD Spoilers) -------- Josh Kaderlan writes: >Sol writes: >>Which brings up a question of mine: Why is Denice the "Last Dancer"? >>It seems reasonable to assume any of her descendents could also become >>Dancers, yet no one we've seen mentioned from the future is one. >>(Lots of nightfaces, though --- Camber, Ola Blue, Name Storyteller.) > >I'm not sure that Denice is the "Last Dancer" the title refers to. I >think it's more likely a reference to Gi'Suei'Obodi'Sedon; he's the last >Dancer Dvan has to kill (excepting, of course, Say, who he doesn't know >about). Well, Denice is definitely a Dancer, and she definitely outlasts Sedon. More to the point, the section of the book which is titled "The Last Dancer" starts immediately after Sedon dies. Further, the book The Last Dancer is definitely Denice's story. So I'm sure the "Last Dancer" is Denice. I just don't understand why she is the "last" one. -Sol **************** Sat, 23 Oct 93 22:57:47 EDT **************** From: solomon foster To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Wow. (Minor LD Spoilers) -------- Sean writes: >Josh Kaderlan writes: >>This brings up another point: who the hell are we supposed to support, >>Camber or the Name Storyteller? Their whole conflict has gone way over my >>head. And is the Name Storyteller really the god in the ten-sided temple? >>I'm a little confused. > >Neither, and yes. > >To be precise, the two new gods are Camber and Storyteller. And we >are not really supposed to support either, although I think Camber is >probably the most "human." From _Emerald Eyes_' afterward: > > A trader, named Camber, circa 3,000 A.D., who found himself > in over his head in a war with these really bad news demigods > who were waging what they called the Time Wars; > >From various comments by Storyteller (who *is*, after all, telling the >stories for all of the books so far), it appears that Camber is on the >defensive, at least most of the time. Actually, my assumption from this is that Camber will be the "hero" somewhere down the line. There will be a point where "we are supposed to support" him. (Note that Camber definitely sees himself as the hero, while Name Storyteller seems more neutral; of course, that is a good role for a storyteller.) This doesn't mean he will always be the hero, or is one now. >(Although it also appears as if Camber kills Storyteller, from a comment >in _Emerald Eyes_.) Hmmm . . . if you're thinking of the quote I'm thinking of, Storyteller says that he does not know the outcome of the upcoming battle. >The goals of the Time Wars appear to have been to eliminate the Envoy, >but the best they were able to do was Chain him, and create the Great >Wheel of Existance. (Incidently, this is the same Great Wheel that is >in _The Armageddon Blues_, as the diagram at the end of _The Last >Dancer_ indicates.) I really want to know more about this. How is the "Walks-Far Empire" connected to the Walks-Far character in AB? "Realtime" gives the impression that the Walks-Far Empire has invaded the timestream of AB. What are "Hawking's Page" and "The Sunset Strip"? I don't recall seeing mention of these anywhere. >On to other thoughts: > >Obodi's Name was Camber (aka the Nameless One; Camber's Name actually >just appears to be an inarticulate scream of rage and pain), but one >or both of them renounced the other. Denice now appears to have >Camber as her Name, although I don't think she really understands >that. Maybe I missed something in LD. What exactly is the Name relationship? My impression/guess had been that the Nameless One was Camber in a latter stage of his life; you seem to be suggesting that his name is Camber, but he has no Name? >Also, note that there *is* a Man-Spacething war; this means that the >human race does something no other race in the Continuing Time was able >to do: defeat the Sleem. I really want to know *how* (but it takes >place 11 years after the end of the third Trent book). My guess is AI is involved. If I recall LD correctly, the implication is made that the old human race is very unfamiliar with the idea of intelligent machines; this suggests the Sleem might also lack AI. And DKM's AIs work a lot faster than humans. This could be a big advantage in war. >Camber's ancestry: we know he is not descended from Denice. However, >he does appear to be a telepath, although very different. My belief is >that he is a descendant of Trent's (who is not a telepath because of a >single gene). This seems unlikely to me. For one thing, Camber mentions how his life (or his ancestors'?) and the telepaths have touched many times. If he is Trent's descendent, I would think that Storyteller's killing Trent would be as destructive as Camber's killing Denice. Since Camber rules the latter out, I suspect Storyteller would rule the former out. (Of course, maybe the possiblity that Trent was an (the?) Envoy overrules this consideration.) Also, the idea of the god of a major religion having a kid running around seems decidedly weird. (I suppose if no one knew it was his . . .) -Sol **************** Sat, 23 Oct 93 20:30:30 PDT **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Last Dancer (Minor LD Spoilers) -------- >I just don't understand why she is the "last" one. At the time of the ending of the novel, Denice *is* the last Dancer on Earth. Given other statements, it's quite possible that she is the last Dancer at *all*. That is quite possibly what it means. However, it's also possible that Denice doesn't pass on the teaching. I am not sure what is involved in Dancing, but I think Denice's being a telepath, and her training by Robert, are a large part of the reason. But remember that Robert was training her to be a *nightface*, not a Dancer. There's too much that is unexplained about Dancing the Flame to really say anything about it. Sean. **************** Sat, 23 Oct 93 21:08:03 PDT **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Wow. (Minor LD Spoilers) -------- >I really want to know more about this. How is the "Walks-Far Empire" >connected to the Walks-Far character in AB? Oh, the Walks-Far tribe in that universe probably formed an empire. >Maybe I missed something in LD. What exactly is the Name relationship? It's not explained, but I suspect one's Name is the god one chooses, or is chosen by. We only know a few of the Names: Storyteller, Historian, Anarchist, and the Nameless One. We know all (or at least most) of the others' *names*, but not their Names. >My impression/guess had been that the Nameless One was Camber in a >latter stage of his life; you seem to be suggesting that his name is >Camber, but he has no Name? No. His name is Camber Tremodian, and his Name is an inarticulate scream of rage and pain. He is a very important figure in the Continuing Time (the fact that he is one of the Zaradin gods was one of the first clues :)), and there are four books devoted to him. Two of the chapters in the first book have interesting titles: "The Darkness Has a Name," and "The Hunted Man." So... something really *bad* happens to Camber when he's young, and that's probably how he gets his Name. >My guess is AI is involved. If I recall LD correctly, the implication >is made that the old human race is very unfamiliar with the idea of >intelligent machines; this suggests the Sleem might also lack AI. And >DKM's AIs work a lot faster than humans. This could be a big advantage >in war. It could be. The telepaths are the ones I pegged to be important. But just fast reactions aren't really going to help, given massive firepower. Remember Obodi's comments about the sizes of the Sleem warships. >This seems unlikely to me. For one thing, Camber mentions how his life >(or his ancestors'?) and the telepaths have touched many times. If he >is Trent's descendent, I would think that Storyteller's killing Trent >would be as destructive as Camber's killing Denice. Since Camber rules >the latter out, I suspect Storyteller would rule the former out. (Of >course, maybe the possiblity that Trent was an (the?) Envoy overrules >this consideration.) No, you're right: Storyteller's killing Trent would wipe out Camber, if Trent is one of Camber's ancestors. That would explain both Camber's and Storyteller's comments that Camber had fixed things such that Trent was safe from him, for at least a while. Just as Storyteller had to protect Denice. Camber doesn't want to kill her, but he will, if necessary; I suspect that would be dangerous, *because* of the fact that his ancestors' and Denice's descendants' lives have touched many times. >Also, the idea of the god of a major religion having a kid running >around seems decidedly weird. (I suppose if no one knew it was >his . . .) Well, it doesn't become a major religion for a while, for one thing, and Trent dies pretty soon. (I think during or after the AI wars.) And, in any event, if Trent is one of Camber's ancestors, then Camber's a god, also, so it works out okay... Sean. **************** Sun, 24 Oct 93 17:20:10 EDT **************** From: solomon foster To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Last Dancer (spoilers) -------- Obviously I wasn't clear enough last post . . . Sean writes: >Sol writes: >>I just don't understand why she is the "last" one. >At the time of the ending of the novel, Denice *is* the last Dancer on >Earth. Given other statements, it's quite possible that she is the last >Dancer at *all*. Well right. Actually, I greatly doubt that any other Dancer will follow Denice, because Moran is precise in things like that. My question is why does no other Dancer follow Denice? >That is quite possibly what it means. However, it's also possible that >Denice doesn't pass on the teaching. Obviously she doesn't --- but why not? (Lack of time seems a good answer --- is she going to survive the Trent duology?) >I am not sure what is involved in >Dancing, but I think Denice's being a telepath, and her training by >Robert, are a large part of the reason. But remember that Robert was >training her to be a *nightface*, not a Dancer. We do know that there are are other telepathic nightfaces. (Name Storyteller, at the very least.) Why do none of them become Dancers? >There's too much that is unexplained about Dancing the Flame to really >say anything about it. There's too little information to say anything authoritative (unless you are DKM). (I think --- I'm unwilling to say that I caught everything in the Last Dancer, and I'm certainly not yet sure how it ties in with the other two books.) But there's plenty of information to speculate from. -Sol **************** Tue, 26 Oct 93 23:13:32 EDT **************** From: solomon foster To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Favorite Book -------- All right, as the last small conversation seems to have died, let's try to get another one going. What is everyone's favorite DKM book? My favorite (at the moment) is probably the Last Dancer. I've always thought that the Long Run was kind of a lightweight book next to Emerald Eyes, but with more polish; Last Dancer combines the polish with the depth of Emerald Eyes. -Sol **************** Tue, 26 Oct 93 20:25:36 PDT **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Favorite Book -------- >All right, as the last small conversation seems to have died, let's try >to get another one going. What is everyone's favorite DKM book? Well, let's see... there are five of them. One of them, _The Ring_, by DKM's own admission, isn't too good. The rest, I would rank as: _The Long Run_, _The Armageddon Blues_, _The Last Dancer_, and _Emerald Eyes_. TLR was amusing, told a good story, and gave enough focus on a couple of characters (most notably Trent) for me to think of them as real. TAB, although his first (published) novel, had a lot of things going for it that I found I enjoyed it far more on my second reading than my first, and even more on my third. EE set up the stage for tLR and tLD, as well as anything that follows it, and, in that sense, stands more as an introductory novella than a novel. TLD... lacked Trent, largely. And for some reason, I found Denice to be... distant. Not quite as understandable as Trent. I don't think tLR was "shallow" in comparison to EE. EE told a short story, and introduced several rather important characters. The major thing that happened in it was the destruction of the telepaths. In tLR, on the other hand, we have Trent being formed into the person who will, eventually, be considered God incarnate. He survived the ruination of his life, the continual attack and persecution by the PKF, and the murder of someone he grew close to. Along the way, he refined his belief that killing is *ALWAYS WRONG* -- yet was accused of killing people over and over again. His reaction to this was to make grandiose statements: stealing the LINK, having Vance put a whole room of reporters to sleep, "walking through Peaceforcer Heaven," etc. I *understand* Trent. He is a person to me. I do not understand Denice, not really. Admittedly, a lot of that is because she doesn't understand herself, but a fair amount is because, despite the amount of coverage she got in tLD, she did not get as much development as Trent had in tLR. Sean. **************** Tue, 26 Oct 1993 23:36:56 -0400 **************** From: chris siebenmann To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Favorite Book -------- I find THE LAST DANCER to be a nice opening for an Nology; as a stand alone book it's too littered with unexplained fragments of Continuing Time that distract me from things. I wouldn't mind if we had the prospect of an explanation soon, but it seems likely to be ten years or more before we'll have the background to really appreciate those bits. I remember the same thing (but less of it) in EMERALD EYES, plus EE goes by pretty fast; it sort of feels like a big book packed into a small one. [I don't own a copy of EE, despite trying; anyone know if it's going to be reprinted?] Thus I wind up liking THE LONG RUN best, then probably ARMAGEDDON BLUES, then THE LAST DANCER, then EMERALD EYES. The relative merits of AB vs TLD are subject to change. - cks **************** Tue, 26 Oct 1993 23:46:49 -0400 (EST) **************** From: dark phoenix To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Favorite Book -------- On Tue, 26 Oct 1993 sef@kithrup.com wrote: > Well, let's see... there are five of them. One of them, _The Ring_, > by DKM's own admission, isn't too good. The rest, I would rank as: > _The Long Run_, _The Armageddon Blues_, _The Last Dancer_, and _Emerald > Eyes_. Are _The Ring_ and _The Armageddon Blues_ part of the Continuing Time? (I haven't read them yet.) I don't remember seeing them in DKM's posted chronology. ****************************************************************************** Rebecca A. Drayer, EMT-A | drayer@minerva.cis.yale.edu (a.k.a Organic Lass of the LNH) | Silliman College, Yale University "I'm sorry Mr. James, but you're WEIRD!!!" - Probe ****************************************************************************** **************** Tue, 26 Oct 1993 23:57:38 -0400 (EDT) **************** From: ender@uunet.uu.net (pete "ender" walsh) To: colomon@eecs.umich.edu (solomon foster) Subject: Re: Favorite Book -------- Solomon Foster wrote: > All right, as the last small conversation seems to have died, let's try > to get another one going. What is everyone's favorite DKM book? > > My favorite (at the moment) is probably the Last Dancer. I've always > thought that the Long Run was kind of a lightweight book next to Emerald > Eyes, but with more polish; Last Dancer combines the polish with the > depth of Emerald Eyes. > > -Sol Having just finished TLD it's tempting to say it was my favourite, but upon reflection I must honestly say that The Long Run tops my list, and might just be my fave book period. Many of the reasons don't even really have much to do with the story itself. I was in a bookstore hunting for something new and different and was drawn by the Jim Burns cover. I like Burns' work a lot. I read the back cover and the inner "teaser" and my interest was piqued. At the time I didn't realize that it was a part of a series. I had a hunch it might be, but couldn't find any other DKM stuff so I just dove in. I couldn't put it down. Here was the "cyberpunk" I was looking for. I must say that I really don't like Gibson, at least not the style. Trent was the ideal hacker in the ideal virtual reality for my liking, AND he wasn't just a hacker... there character lived and breathed outside the Net. I really liked the fact that all of the characters I encountered were multi-faceted and that they were developed to a degree that few authors bother with. I also liked that as I read on and questions got answered, new questions were raised. I hate to be taken by the hand and shown all the answers. I like to THINK about things occasionally. =) I spent a year and a half tracking down Emerald Eyes and The Armageddon Blues. I still haven't found The Ring. In the time it took to find EE and TAB I reread TLR several times and almost always found something new, even if it was just a new way of looking at a character or scene. With time TLD may take on this quality as well, as I am SURE there are things I missed or overlooked. For now TLR (which I am reading AGAIN) takes the prize. -- Ender ================================================-============================= Pete "Ender" Walsh, AlterNet Install Engineer | Internet: ender@uunet.uu.net UUNet Technologies, Falls Church, VA. | UUCP: {anysite}!uunet!ender ================================================-============================= **************** Tue, 26 Oct 93 21:02:20 PDT **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Favorite Book -------- >Are _The Ring_ and _The Armageddon Blues_ part of the Continuing Time? (I >haven't read them yet.) I don't remember seeing them in DKM's posted >chronology. _The Ring_ is an adaptation of a Canadian made-for-tv movie. Approximately half of the book is based on the show, the other half is DKM. Interestingly enough, when I was in email contact with DKM, I told him that I enjoyed the first half of the book, but thought the second half kinda fell through -- and his response was that the first half was background, his own invention, but the second half was from the script. So it supported my opinion about him as a writer. Anyway: tR is not part of the Continuing Time, except for one small thing (there are some Silver Eyes in it, but they're male, if I remember correctly, and acting as bodyguards. Yeah, right). TAB isn't a part of the Continuing Time either. However, the Continuing Time stories take place in the same ... background as tAB. That is, the Great Wheel of Existance (mentioned in tAB, and in tLD for the first time in the CT series) is the background for everything but tR (and, as I said, even that could be put in there because of the Silver Eyes). If you look in the back of tLD, you'll see the Great Wheel mapped out. Sean. **************** Wed, 27 Oct 1993 00:05:16 -0400 (EDT) **************** From: ender@uunet.uu.net (pete "ender" walsh) To: continuing-time@umich.edu (the continuing time mailing list) Subject: Re: Favorite Book -------- Apologies to Solomon, who is seeing this for the second time. I accidentally sent it only to him. What can I say... it's midnight. I also noticed upon reading the thread further that folks were ranking all the books, so here's my shot at it, excepting The Ring, which I haven't read. The Long Run The Last Dancer Emerald Eyes The Armageddon Blues One small note: I've read TLR more than any of the others, more than the rest combined actually. I just finished TLD. It's been ages since I read EE or TAB. Thus, the entire list is subject to change. > Solomon Foster wrote: > > All right, as the last small conversation seems to have died, let's try > > to get another one going. What is everyone's favorite DKM book? > > > > My favorite (at the moment) is probably the Last Dancer. I've always > > thought that the Long Run was kind of a lightweight book next to Emerald > > Eyes, but with more polish; Last Dancer combines the polish with the > > depth of Emerald Eyes. > > > > -Sol > > Having just finished TLD it's tempting to say it was my favourite, but upon > reflection I must honestly say that The Long Run tops my list, and might just > be my fave book period. Many of the reasons don't even really have much to > do with the story itself. I was in a bookstore hunting for something new and > different and was drawn by the Jim Burns cover. I like Burns' work a lot. I > read the back cover and the inner "teaser" and my interest was piqued. At > the time I didn't realize that it was a part of a series. I had a hunch it > might be, but couldn't find any other DKM stuff so I just dove in. I > couldn't put it down. Here was the "cyberpunk" I was looking for. I must > say that I really don't like Gibson, at least not the style. Trent was the > ideal hacker in the ideal virtual reality for my liking, AND he wasn't just a > hacker... there character lived and breathed outside the Net. I really > liked the fact that all of the characters I encountered were multi-faceted > and that they were developed to a degree that few authors bother with. I > also liked that as I read on and questions got answered, new questions were > raised. I hate to be taken by the hand and shown all the answers. I like to > THINK about things occasionally. =) I spent a year and a half tracking down > Emerald Eyes and The Armageddon Blues. I still haven't found The Ring. In > the time it took to find EE and TAB I reread TLR several times and almost > always found something new, even if it was just a new way of looking at a > character or scene. With time TLD may take on this quality as well, as I am > SURE there are things I missed or overlooked. For now TLR (which I am > reading AGAIN) takes the prize. > > -- > Ender > ================================================-============================= > Pete "Ender" Walsh, AlterNet Install Engineer | Internet: ender@uunet.uu.net > UUNet Technologies, Falls Church, VA. | UUCP: {anysite}!uunet!ender > ================================================-============================= Ender **************** Wed, 27 Oct 93 00:49 EDT **************** From: "josh kaderlan" To: continuing-time@umich.edu, colomon@eecs.umich.edu Subject: Re: Favorite Book -------- >All right, as the last small conversation seems to have died, let's try >to get another one going. What is everyone's favorite DKM book? Unfortunately, I haven't read either *The Ring* or *The Armageddon Blues*, and it's been quite a while since *Emerald Eyes*. I do remember liking EE quite a bit when I read it, but I don't remember specifics. I'd have to rank tLR as the best of the three, but the other two are tied in my book. EE really set the stage well, and Carl Castanaveras was a more interesting protagonist than Denice. Denice was just too bland for my taste. She also doesn't seem to believe in anything; she enjoys killing the people in Los Angeles but won't eat meat, and justifies it by saying that life is full of contradictions. That's a cop-out. What it means to me is that she's unwilling to really take a stand, as opposed to Carl or even Trent. Trent at least separates killing sentients from no-sentients. As well, Carl seems more human; he has rages, while Denice has far too much self-control for my liking. I also didn't have the visceral dislike throughout the book for Gi'Suei'Obodi'Sedon as I did for the villains in both tLR and EE. Just my .11 francs. Josh **************** Wed, 27 Oct 1993 00:33:18 -500 (EDT) **************** From: michael burrage To: dkm mailing list Subject: Re: Favorite Book -------- On Tue, 26 Oct 1993 sef@kithrup.com wrote: > > Well, let's see... there are five of them. One of them, _The Ring_, > by DKM's own admission, isn't too good. The rest, I would rank as: > _The Long Run_, _The Armageddon Blues_, _The Last Dancer_, and _Emerald > Eyes_. > > TAB, although his first (published) novel, had a lot of things going > for it that I found I enjoyed it far more on my second reading than my first, > and even more on my third. EE set up the stage for tLR and tLD, as well > as anything that follows it, and, in that sense, stands more as an > introductory novella than a novel. TLD... lacked Trent, largely. And > for some reason, I found Denice to be... distant. Not quite as understandable > as Trent. > Well, I have yet to read AB or Ring (can't get a copy of AB, still waiting for Ring from WaldenBooks), but of the Con Time novels I would rank them: first EE, second LD, third LR. I really like the way DKM told the history of the UN takeover interwoven with the current events. I also liked the almost inevitable chain of events as all of the players in the story interacted with each other. Of course my preferance could be influenced by the fact that EE was the introduction to my favorite SF setting. The LD and LR are both a very close second and third, with the deciding differance being that I prefer Denice to Trent although not by much. On another note, I have not had the time yet to reread LD and am a little fuzzy on the great wheel. What are your interpretations of it and how does it link the ConTime with AB (which I have not read). Does AB have more about the wheel, and why was LD advertised as the fourth ConTime novel (implying that AB was the first?). ======================================= Michael J. Burrage (michael.burrage@uvm.edu) (mburrage@moose.uvm.edu) _____..---========+*+==========---.._____ ______________________ __,-='=====____ =================== _____=====`= (._____________________I__) - _-=_/ `---------=+=--------' / /__...---===='---+---_' `------'---.___ - _ = _.-' `--------' **************** Wed, 27 Oct 93 00:49 EDT **************** From: "josh kaderlan" To: continuing-time@umich.edu, colomon@eecs.umich.edu Subject: Re: Favorite Book -------- >All right, as the last small conversation seems to have died, let's try >to get another one going. What is everyone's favorite DKM book? Unfortunately, I haven't read either *The Ring* or *The Armageddon Blues*, and it's been quite a while since *Emerald Eyes*. I do remember liking EE quite a bit when I read it, but I don't remember specifics. I'd have to rank tLR as the best of the three, but the other two are tied in my book. EE really set the stage well, and Carl Castanaveras was a more interesting protagonist than Denice. Denice was just too bland for my taste. She also doesn't seem to believe in anything; she enjoys killing the people in Los Angeles but won't eat meat, and justifies it by saying that life is full of contradictions. That's a cop-out. What it means to me is that she's unwilling to really take a stand, as opposed to Carl or even Trent. Trent at least separates killing sentients from no-sentients. As well, Carl seems more human; he has rages, while Denice has far too much self-control for my liking. I also didn't have the visceral dislike throughout the book for Gi'Suei'Obodi'Sedon as I did for the villains in both tLR and EE. Just my ...11 francs. Josh **************** Tue, 26 Oct 93 22:02:29 PDT **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Favorite Book -------- > On another note, I have not had the time yet to reread LD and am a >little fuzzy on the great wheel. What are your interpretations of it and >how does it link the ConTime with AB (which I have not read). Does AB >have more about the wheel, and why was LD advertised as the fourth ConTime >novel (implying that AB was the first?). Okay. As explained in tLD, the Serathin bound the Envoy; in doing so, the Great Wheel of Existance was created, binding the Serathin to it (and I think to this universe). Combinging tAB and tLD, it seems each of the "universes" is a different "spoke" (each with a different chaos/order combination, or something like that); half of the universes are anti-matter, half are matter. The Serathin are Chaos. The Envoy is Order. The Continuing Time takes place entirely in one universe; we only start to care about the Great Wheel of Existance whenever the Serathin show up, and starting at about 10,400AD. A long, long time from now; it might be that year when the books about that time are actually published :). Oh, and who said tLD was the fourth Continuing Time novel? It doesn't say so on the book; I suspect that someone was just confused. It is the fourth novel in the Great Wheel of Existance series, but, as I said, that is the background for the CT series, and not terribly important. (Except for the fact that the Serathin are hopefully more godlike than Storyteller or Camber... the latter two seem to be human, but the Serathin existed before this universe. Before the GWoE, in fact. Scary.) Sean. **************** Wed, 27 Oct 1993 01:07:52 -0400 **************** From: chris siebenmann To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Favorite Book -------- | I also didn't have the visceral dislike throughout the book for | Gi'Suei'Obodi'Sedon as I did for the villains in both tLR and EE. Is Sedon a villain? I don't know; I don't think it's at all clear. We see too little of his actions to tell; he does some villainous things, but so do other people in the book (including, one could argue, Denice). - cks **************** Tue, 26 Oct 93 22:15:19 PDT **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Favorite Book -------- > Is Sedon a villain? I don't know; I don't think it's at all clear. We >see too little of his actions to tell; he does some villainous things, >but so do other people in the book (including, one could argue, >Denice). Indeed. In fact, I'd have to say that Obodi probably had a better goal than Dvan: Obodi was thinking about the Sleem, and how to deal with them. I'd wager that everything he did was to that end. The problem is that the resulting cultre probably would not have been *ours*, and, therefore, he couldn't win :). I don't know if Dvan would have done anything about them. He never really seemed to set himself up as a leader, and he didn't seem to have the charisma that Obodi had, so I don't think he really could have. But, no, Obodi wasn't really a villain. In fact, I might be so bold as to say that there were *no* villains in _The Last Dancer_: everyone was doing the right thing, given their point of view. This was not the case in _Emerald Eyes_, and not quite in _The Long Run_; in the first, Carlson was insane, and the entire PKF wanted to enslave the telepaths. That is not a good thing, and they would have agreed -- if they weren't blinded by their own greed for power to keep their own power. In tLR, Emille was wrong to begin with, and everything went on from there. And Vance has obsessed on Trent, and has, at times, forgotten that he is supposed to keep the peace -- not blow up space stations trying to capture a single thief (even if the thief *is* God). Most of the time, however, Vance is a brilliant strategist, and is trying to keep the peace and protecting Earth. Sean. **************** Wed, 27 Oct 93 13:07:09 EDT **************** From: wesley mcdermott To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Favorite Book -------- Just to toss in my 2 cents: I agree with Ender: Long Run Last Dancer Emerald Eyes Armageddon Blues I was rather bummed that Dvan seemed to come out the clear loser in LD as compared to Sedon - Dvan could be said to have lost just as much of life, while experiencing a WHOLE LOT more pain than his enemy Sedon. Of course, Sedon died and we don't know if Dvan did... (: SMILE! Wesley **************** Wed, 27 Oct 1993 14:51:13 -0400 **************** From: mkr@fid.morgan.com (mike rosenberg) To: continuing-time@umich.edu, colomon@eecs.umich.edu, jek133@psuvm.psu.edu Subject: Re: Wow. (Minor LD Spoilers) -------- >it's more likely a reference to Gi'Suei'Obodi'Sedon; he's the last Dancer >Dvan has to kill (excepting, of course, Say, who he doesn't know about). Say is not a dancer. she is one of the engineers or whoever who was exiled along with the dancers. there may well be more of them... mike **************** Wed, 27 Oct 1993 15:03:35 -0400 **************** From: chris siebenmann To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Wow. (Minor LD Spoilers) -------- Say is female, so I assume she was a breeder; the Flame People's women seemed to be either Keepers of the Flame (nonexistant among the exiles) or breeders. She has no doubt learned a lot since the exile, of course. - cks **************** Wed, 27 Oct 93 16:26:02 EDT **************** From: wesley mcdermott To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: how to get... -------- > ...books would go back in print. but from what i gather, > AB is not. Does that imply that the others will be? (: Wesley **************** Wed, 27 Oct 93 16:27:55 EDT **************** From: solomon foster To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: DKM Mailing List -------- >I never tried it either. The address I have (presumably the same as yours): > >d_moran@pain.la.ca.us Anyone know if this is still a valid address for DKM? I've tried the (meager) tricks I know for verifying addresses, with no luck. -Sol **************** Wed, 27 Oct 1993 18:42:27 -0400 **************** From: mkr@fid.morgan.com (mike rosenberg) To: continuing-time@umich.edu, wmcd@mit.edu Subject: Re: how to get... -------- i believe they are in print. mike **************** Wed, 27 Oct 93 17:04:47 PDT **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu, wmcd@mit.edu Subject: Re: how to get... -------- To the best of my knowledge, the only DKM book in print right now is _The Last Dancer_. If the others were in print, the bookstore I frequent would have gotten them. Sean. **************** Wed, 27 Oct 93 17:20:38 -0700 **************** From: rcrowley@sooth.zso.dec.com ("rebecca leann smit crowley") To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: DKM books in print -------- A call to university book store in Seattle, WA reveals that *everything* is in print, and I ordered the lot (as my copies were all purchased used), including _The Ring_ (but not _The Last Dancer_, as I already have a new copy). I suspect that copy of the ring will never appear, as no price is listed next to it, it may not be "in print" but only in insubstantial, semi-mythical stock in some unknown warehouse which also contains the lost Ark, and probably bones from random saints and apostles as well. Yippee! Rebecca Crowley standard disclaimers apply rcrowley@zso.dec.com **************** Thu, 28 Oct 1993 09:06:35 -500 (EDT) **************** From: michael burrage To: dkm mailing list Subject: Re: DKM books in print -------- On Wed, 27 Oct 1993, Rebecca Leann Smit Crowley wrote: > > A call to university book store in Seattle, WA reveals that > *everything* is in print, and I ordered the lot (as my > copies were all purchased used), including _The Ring_ > (but not _The Last Dancer_, as I already have a new copy). > I suspect that copy of the ring will never appear, as no > price is listed next to it, it may not be "in print" but > I recently checked Books In Print myself and according to that source all of DKM's stuff is still in print, but when I called the publisher I was told that the books were just recently out of print. Rebecca, If you do get the books let us know. I suppose that the publisher could have been just out of stock. Also Waldonbooks told me that all except of course LD were out of print but they could still get a copy of Ring (in a trade-paper printing I believe) I am still waiting on that book. Sorry if I am the bearer of bad news, I hope I am not. ======================================= Michael J. Burrage (michael.burrage@uvm.edu) (mburrage@moose.uvm.edu) _____..---========+*+==========---.._____ ______________________ __,-='=====____ =================== _____=====`= (._____________________I__) - _-=_/ `---------=+=--------' / /__...---===='---+---_' `------'---.___ - _ = _.-' `--------' **************** Thu, 28 Oct 1993 09:40:45 -0400 **************** From: mkr@fid.morgan.com (mike rosenberg) To: continuing-time@umich.edu, wmcd@mit.edu, sef@kithrup.com Subject: Re: how to get... -------- i think EE and TLR are in print, but the big book distributers are not buying them, thus most bookstores (both big chains and independents) can't get them. if you want them, try ordering direct from bantam. they have an 800 number that i don't have right here. let us know if you are sucessful. mike **************** Wed, 27 Oct 1993 15:20:05 -0400 **************** From: mkr@fid.morgan.com (mike rosenberg) To: continuing-time@umich.edu, cks@hawkwind.utcs.toronto.edu Subject: how to get AB -------- i was hoping that with the release of LD, DKM's other books would go back in print. but from what i gather, AB is not. if anyone has an extra copy to sell, i'm a buyer. mike **************** Thu, 28 Oct 93 15:04:25 EDT **************** From: wesley mcdermott To: continuing-time@umich.edu, rcrowley@sooth.zso.dec.com ("rebecca leann smit crowley") Subject: Re: DKM books in print -------- I'd be interested in the number of that "university book store" in Seattle, WA, because the news is: 1) Bantam's order number is 1-800-223-5780, and push for "non-account number sales" 2) EE and LR are out of print and unorderable from them. Sigh... (: Wesley **************** Thu, 28 Oct 1993 16:34:12 -0400 **************** From: mkr@fid.morgan.com (mike rosenberg) To: continuing-time@umich.edu, rcrowley@sooth.zso.dec.com, wmcd@mit.edu Subject: Re: DKM books in print -------- i tried the 800 number to order AB. they transferred me to another number which handles direct sales to individuals. (fyi the direct number is 212-354-6500 extension 29479). the result: AB is out of print. i think bantam is doing dkm (and themselves) a diservice by not bringing his other books back into print, now that TLD is out. my advice is to innudate them with calls and letters attempting to buy these books. maybe they will get the message... my other advice (to dkm) is to find a new publisher. mike **************** Thu, 28 Oct 93 17:47:42 EDT **************** From: john bykowski To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: -------- I think the best way to pick up DKM's work is in a used bookstore. It took me some time, but I now have AB, EE, and 2 copies of LR, all picked up in used bookstores. Not true - I forgot that one of the copies was picked up in a bookstore that catered to women's romances. No SF fan would frequent the store , because all it had were some few, ancient softcovers that nobody ever wanted - like two copies of LR, one of which I gave to a friend. Since then I have seen LR a few times, but EE only the once - and I thank Sol for letting me take it instead of him. (He spotted it, but he knew I didn't have a copy.) I don't believe that Dvan has been killed off - he seems to be set up for another centuries-long amnesia attack. I can't wait for the AI War to come out - Trent is my favorite of the main characters. It just seems that Denice is lacking something. I also think that Moran should cut down on the song quotes. Either he's not a good lyricist, or Kutura's not all she's cracked up to be. The songs seem so simplistic and juvenile. Also - a mere 80 or so years into the future, and DKM thinks no one will remember what an electric guitar looks like, and doesn't know who the Beatles are? C'mon. It's more likely that they would know the songs and have to be reminded of the ban, but no knowledge? We're still whistling Greensleeves even though we've forgotten the writer. I'm sure that's mainly due to the lack of recorded media at the time. **************** Thu, 28 Oct 93 18:23:13 -0500 **************** From: "brian wells/dave brodek" To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Fave books -------- (Ouch! Okay, Okay, Sol, I'll post already!) (Spoiler alert -- does it matter?) I've been doing the silent obsever thing for a bit, and this seems about as easy a question to answer as any. So here's my rank list: The Long Run *These two ranks await rereadings. Emerald Eyes *The Armageddon Blues *The Last Dancer #The Ring # I have not read this book The Long Run has earned itself a place in my patented Brownian Motion Top Ten List. (That's my list of general faves, the members of which are often known to flip rankings but rarely actually leave the list. It's dominated by three authors, all three the best yarn-spinners I have ever read, bar none. Zelazny [I tend to count Amber as two LARGE novels], Brust, and Moran for the curious) Every time I go back and re-read the durn thing it gets harder and harder to put down, and it is one of those books I keep finding obscure (and not-nearly-as-obscure) references to present culture. Only Zelazny and Brust are able to do that to the same degree, and it blows me away. Emerald Eyes, while very well described as an introductory novella, introduced so many bloody interesting characters in the midst of a riveting future history ( to the point of inducing mild francophbia [or is that frogophobia? What IS the word for that, anyway? }> ), that it gets my number two rank. Carl was interesting and human enough that I could identify with him. Same with Jany McConnell, Shana DeNostri, and the late, lamented Chris Summers (my first beef with DKM. Summers was FAR too valuable a monkey wrench to expend on something like an abortive Second American Revolution. Poop. However, he DID "survive" his first ballistic descent...) Armageddon Blues gets the three spot for similar reasons. The characters were all interesting, particularly Georges (pseudo-frog or not). I definitely need a copy of this book that I might re-read it, however. Sigh. Actually, out of all DKM's books printed to date, AB has the most potential for a crossover invasion into the Continuing Time. I like that. Ah, yes. The Last Dancer. Well, I suspect I will appreciate all the epithetted background on Gi'Suei Sedon and Gi'Tbad Dvan (I'm rather fond of pronouning the family name as "GittBad" as opposed to the described "JeetBahd". Sounds more my speed. [GittBad -- GittBad -- GittBad to where you once bel-- Oh, sorry] and all the rest of the Happy Match-Light Brigade later on in the series (probably after another 300-600 years CT time), but it felt like I was trying to read The Silmarillion again (I never HAVE managed to finish that book. Plod, plod, plod!). It was just too much, and I had really been looking forward to emphasis on the DKM "present", as was done in tLR. Plus, I join the consensus on Denice. Acts like she took a bath in the Fount of Power at the Keep of the Four Worlds (sorry, Sol. My head's stuck in Amber). That is to say, she lacks humanity and a certain kind of integrity, somehow. Trent is always Trent, and identifiably so, regardless of biosculpt, location, circumstance, or what-have-you. Trent has a personality that is unmistakably his and his alone within the series. Denice acts more like a supporting castmember, along the lines of Booker Jamethon and Max Devlin -- always waffling and kinda-sorta doing this and kinda-sorta killing that, but never really crystallizing as a person, even (or perhaps especially) when she blows David away at the end. Thhbphthbthpht. He escapes the nuking, survives the Fringe, pulls something of a fast one on Sedon to get offed by Denice? I wasn't even really surprised (and no, that's not your fault, Sol!). Mohammed Vance is by far more interesting than Denice. Maybe DKM should write one from his point of view. "PeaceKeeper: How to Kill... well, Anyone You Just Plain Don't Like" by M. Vance My goodness, that's a long one. Well, until next time... Squilchgmp! Brian Wells **************** Thu, 28 Oct 93 23:08:53 PDT **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: next debate -------- This is from _The Long Run_, chapter six of ``The Last Summer of His Youth'': ``They come down out of the mountains, to where the circle of his fire is burning against the night.'' She was silent for a moment, still and motionless, then went on dreamily. ``And, you see the young man he *speaks* to them then, at the food of the mountains while the living diamonds hunt them in the darkness, and tells them that the old promises will be fulfilled, the old dreams realized, the old wrongs made right. And then, *together*,'' Denice Castanaveras said, speaking directly to Jimmy Ramirez, who sat frozen, utterly transfixed, ``together they march back through the Traveling Waters, and go back together to the city on the hill and drive out the enemy.'' [...] [Trent asked,] ``Where are we?'' ``Watching. Watching the fire,'' she said softly, ``burning out. They forgot to bank Tyrel's fire when they all left together. It flickers and then the cold kills it, and all that's left is the -- darkness.'' [end quote] So, any ideas on what that was all about? She acted the same way Carl did when he had a glimpse of the future, although she was considerably more vocal. After reading _The Last Dancer_, I'm almost tempted to think it was something from then... but the reference to `the Traveling Waters' makes me think of Walks Far (`Traveling Waters' sounds like a "typically" indian name, and the one Walks Far we've seen was an indian...). Sean. **************** Fri, 29 Oct 93 10:24:01 -0700 **************** From: rcrowley@sooth.zso.dec.com ("rebecca leann smit crowley") To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: not knowing who the Beatles were -------- This actually isn't *that* weird. I have vivid memories of a discussion with a reasonably bright friend of mine about what our favorite music was. I said I still really liked Elvis, and she said, "Who?". Granted, it wouldn't happen now (not with all the Elvis sightings and all ;), but at the time, it was a helluva shock. She really had no idea who Elvis Presley was. Even weirder was the time I was in the car with my mother (a fan of Frank Sinatra and co. from when she was young) and "I wanna hold your hand" came on the radio. It ended, and some Pink Floyd song (from the Wall, but I don't recall which one) started. She said, "The music your generation listens to is really stupid". Somewhat disoriented, I cautiously asked to which song she referred -- this one or the previous. She said, "This is fine -- but the other one was really dumb." I then informed her (okay, I shouldn't have laughed so hard) that it was more *her* generation (she graduated high school in 1958) than mine that was responsible for the popularity of the Beatles. Point being, she didn't recognize the song. Does everyone on the list know what a ukelele is? They used to be used quite a lot in popular music. If anyone here *doesn't* know what one is, then it's reasonable characters in DKM books wouldn't recognize an electric guitar. Rebecca Crowley rcrowley@zso.dec.com standard disclaimers apply **************** Fri, 29 Oct 93 14:21:40 EDT **************** From: wesley mcdermott To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Miscellaneous Question -------- Is there a connection and/or meaning between Moran's "Serathin" and Edgar Poe's "Seraphim" in the Raven? Is this a coincidence or are they both references to some historical/mythical element? (: Wesley **************** Fri, 29 Oct 93 11:26:52 -0700 **************** From: rcrowley@sooth.zso.dec.com ("rebecca leann smit crowley") To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: serathin/seraphim -------- Dunno about Serathin. You do know Seraphim are a type of angel (class? level?) in a lot of xtian metaphysical systems? (Others which spring to mine, scattered across denominations: thrones, cherubim, archangels. . .). Rebecca **************** Fri, 29 Oct 93 11:45:25 PDT **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Miscellaneous Question -------- >Is there a connection and/or meaning between >Moran's "Serathin" and Edgar Poe's "Seraphim" in the Raven? >Is this a coincidence or are they both references to >some historical/mythical element? Well... it's *possible* that (in DKM's universe) "seraphim" come from "serathin," but that's really unlikely, given that everyone refers to them as "Zaradin." Note that "seraphim" is the plural of "seraph." Also note that the Zaradin are reptilian, and, therefore, *must* hiss a lot, hence, "Sseraseen" (or roughly like that, changed to voiced 's' at the beginning, and a voiced glottal or stop near the end). (And the part about "*must* hiss" is sarcasm... terran reptiles hiss because they have no vocal chords.) Sean. **************** Fri, 29 Oct 93 13:14:33 EDT **************** From: wesley mcdermott To: continuing-time@umich.edu, john bykowski Subject: Re: Songwriting -------- I agree that M. is too interested in his songs; however I do believe that the characters in the book that seem deficient in "song knowledge" are legitimately so. Beatles? Who cares after the life they grew up in (some not even in America/Britain). (and who is green/whatever anyway?) (: SMILE! Wesley **************** Fri, 29 Oct 93 15:51:52 EDT **************** From: solomon foster To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: not knowing who the Beatles were -------- Rebecca Crowley writes: >This actually isn't *that* weird. I have vivid memories of a >discussion with a reasonably bright friend of mine about what >our favorite music was. I said I still really liked Elvis, and >she said, "Who?". Granted, it wouldn't happen now (not with >all the Elvis sightings and all ;), but at the time, it was a >helluva shock. She really had no idea who Elvis Presley was. Or go back before Elvis. One of my (older) friends and my mother instantly recognized the name of some singer or the other from the big band era. Yet I, probably in the top .1% of big band fans from my generation, didn't have a clue who they were talking about. Add another eighty years to this and you have the Beatles wrt 2076. (How many bands could you name from the 1880's?) >Does everyone on the list know what a ukelele is? Sure, Queen was using them in concert as recently as 1975 or so. (Just wondering if the Queen/Daniel Keys Moran connection was unique to the University of Michigan.) >They >used to be used quite a lot in popular music. If anyone >here *doesn't* know what one is, then it's reasonable characters >in DKM books wouldn't recognize an electric guitar. Also note that French culture is dominant in the books. -Sol **************** Fri, 29 Oct 1993 13:41:15 PDT **************** From: "john c. wenn" To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Miscellaneous Question -------- Well, in classic medieval theology, seraphim are the highest order of angels. They rank (from highest to lowest) seraphim, cherubim, thrones, dominations, virtues, powers, principalities, archangels and angels. So the hight muchky-mucks of angels (Michael, Lucifer, Gabriel) would all be seraphim. I don't know what this has to do with DKM, though. /John **************** Fri, 29 Oct 1993 14:14:09 -0700 (PDT) Date-Warning: Date header was inserted by OREGON.UOREGON.EDU **************** From: dcutter@oregon.uoregon.edu (dann cutter) To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: The Ring... -------- Well, I tried to order it through Waldenbooks. It is officially out of print as are the rest of his books. Only Last Dancer is availible to be ordered. I bought the copies they had there and they don't seem to be getting new ones in. Humm. I hope it sells well enough for bantam to go another round. Anyways, there is a service which searches for used books which I am going to try. I'll let you all know what happens. :-) Hey, actually it was really easy I just called them. The number is 1-516-734-5650.... its called Peter Hennessey Booksellers. Try it. Hopefully they'll find me a copy. :-) I remember when the copies were everywhere. Then again, when i talked to DkM about it, he told me he wasn't to sad that I couldn't find it, and that he wouldn't help... unless he gets to rewrite it later! :-) _______________________________________________________________ Dann Cutter Stellar Enterprises=81 / dcutter@oregon.uoregon.edu **************** Wed, 27 Oct 93 13:30:48 PDT **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: DKM Mailing List -------- >>d_moran@pain.la.ca.us There was also dmoran@batpad.lgb.ca.us. >Anyone know if this is still a valid address for DKM? I've >tried the (meager) tricks I know for verifying addresses, with >no luck. To the best of my knowledge, these are no longer valid, as he is not logging into them anymore. I asked the admin of batpad (I think it was), and was told that he hadn't logged in since april or something like that. To send him real mail, Daniel Keys Moran P.O. Box 667 Van Nuys, CA 91408 might still work. sean. **************** Sat, 30 Oct 1993 19:19:08 -0700 (PDT) **************** From: simon cardinale To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: The Ring.. -------- Dark Carnival in Berkeley had 2 copies of the Ring but I bought them yesterday.... I also found (there) a copy of Armageddon Blues. PermaBound (i.e. hardcover, but paperback sized.) Signed. They still have two copies of the Long Run if anyone needs one... 510-845-7757 is the number. I don't know if they do mail order, but I would be willing to pick it up for someone and ship it. **************** Sat, 30 Oct 93 19:50:17 PDT **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: complaint about tLD -------- One of the few serious complaints I have about DKM, actually. Despite normally doing a fair amount of research about stuff he uses, he has Denice claim that Wicca is a younger religion than christianity. Wicca is based on paganism, and both are at least seven or eight thousand years old. Compared to christianity's ~2000, and judaism's ~6000. *grr* (Made worse because of all the really insulting programs about witches on the telly and silver screen this time of year. *grrr*) Sean. **************** Sat, 30 Oct 93 22:57:47 CDT **************** From: erich@bush.cs.tamu.edu (erich schneider) To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: complaint about tLD -------- sef@kithrup.com says: >One of the few serious complaints I have about DKM, actually. Despite >normally doing a fair amount of research about stuff he uses, he has >Denice claim that Wicca is a younger religion than christianity. >Wicca is based on paganism, and both are at least seven or eight thousand >years old. Compared to christianity's ~2000, and judaism's ~6000. I don't want to start a flamewar, and I respect everyone's religion. However... You say "based on paganism". First off, Christianity is "based on" Judaism. Why aren't you then pushing for Christianity being 6000 years old? Buddhism is likewise "based on" Hinduism to a great extent (at least cosmologically), but is at least 1000 years younger than Hinduism as we know it (and probably several thousand years younger in general). Also, Marija Gimbutas aside, it's foolish to say that organized Wicca as we know it today goes back further than this century. Sure, there were and always have been nature-venerating religions, but Wicca owes as much to them as it does to Aleister Crowley (whose "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" sounds suspiciously similar to Gardner's "An it harm none, do what thou wilt" - and is almost identical in meaning if you know the definition of Will Crowley is using). There are plenty of people with "grandmother stories", but most Wiccans today practice a religion descended from Gerald Gardner or one of his associates. I suggest you check out Aidan Kelly's _Crafting the Art of Magic_, a fine textual analysis of Gardnerian Wicca materials. -Erich Schneider erich@bush.cs.tamu.edu **************** Sat, 30 Oct 93 21:08:38 PDT **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: complaint about tLD -------- >You say "based on paganism". First off, Christianity is "based on" >Judaism. Why aren't you then pushing for Christianity being 6000 years >old? Actually, normally I do. I just assumed that everyone knew that christianity was an offshoot of judaism :). >Also, Marija Gimbutas aside, it's foolish to say that organized Wicca >as we know it today goes back further than this century. Now, this is one argument I can agree with. But another way of looking at it is that the current witches are just a recent resurgeance, or another branch of the main one. And most witches I know are *PROUD* of the fact that the religion is quite old. Now, most of the background they choose is based on the European pagans, most notably the celts (who, themselves, were merely practicing something that was already old by their time). My point is that the witches of Goddess Home almost certainly would have chosen to claim as much heritage as possible, just as many current witches and pagans do. And their heritage, and the age of their religion, is a bit older than both christianity and judaism. And, to be honest, I'd say that voudoun is the closest to what everyone in the Continuing Time *should* be practicing, because of the bargaining nature with the gods that both have. Sean. **************** Sat, 30 Oct 93 23:19:27 CDT **************** From: erich@bush.cs.tamu.edu (erich schneider) To: continuing-time@umich.edu, sef@kithrup.com Subject: Re: complaint about tLD -------- From: sef@kithrup.com >>From Erich Schneider (erich@bush.cs.tamu.edu) >>Also, Marija Gimbutas aside, it's foolish to say that organized Wicca >>as we know it today goes back further than this century. > >Now, this is one argument I can agree with. But another way of looking >at it is that the current witches are just a recent resurgeance, or >another branch of the main one. And most witches I know are *PROUD* >of the fact that the religion is quite old. But they don't really have much to stand on, besides some vague musings about the[ao]logical concepts these old Europeans might have had, and the use of some old names. They certainly have no way of determining how similar the ritual forms may have been, for example. (Whereas certain strands of Hinduism still use some of the Vedic hymns, which are demonstrably thousands of years old, because they were written down that long ago.) And if they say "but the spirit's the same", well, many religions share no "genetic relationship" but have a similar "spirit". >My point is that the witches of Goddess Home almost certainly would have >chosen to claim as much heritage as possible, just as many current witches >and pagans do. And their heritage, and the age of their religion, is >a bit older than both christianity and judaism. Ah, a chance to swing this back to DKM. We never hear any Goddess Home Wiccans talking about Wicca that much. Would _Denice_, who makes the statement about Wicca's relative youth, make these claims of heritage? I doubt it very much; she was quite the "cafe Wiccan", I recall. I certainly want to learn a lot more about the Temple of Eris. We know it borrows quite a bit from Christianity (from _TLR_). However, does it take anything from that modern "religion disguised as a joke disguised as a religion", Discordianism? I don't recall any references to golden apples ... Erich Schneider erich@bush.cs.tamu.edu **************** Sat, 30 Oct 93 21:25:53 PDT **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: complaint about tLD -------- >Ah, a chance to swing this back to DKM. We never hear any Goddess Home >Wiccans talking about Wicca that much. Would _Denice_, who makes the >statement about Wicca's relative youth, make these claims of heritage? The fact that she said it says that GH *didn't* make that claim, which I find suspicious. >I certainly want to learn a lot more about the Temple of Eris. I want to learn more about the Prophet Harry, myself. Sean. **************** Sun, 31 Oct 93 01:22 EDT **************** From: "josh kaderlan" To: continuing-time@umich.edu, sef@kithrup.com Subject: Re: complaint about tLD -------- >One of the few serious complaints I have about DKM, actually. Despite >normally doing a fair amount of research about stuff he uses, he has >Denice claim that Wicca is a younger religion than christianity. Yeah, but at the end he states that May founded the worship of the Goddess (which I took to mean Wicca) in pre-Hellenic Greece. Now maybe I don't understand the term "pre-Hellenic" to mean what it means, but that seems to me to say that Wicca predates Christianity by a whole lot. Josh **************** Sun, 31 Oct 93 12:27:24 PST **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Storyteller's name? -------- is Kayell'no. Kyle November? Just more meaningless ramblings... :) **************** Sun, 31 Oct 93 16:23:30 EST **************** From: solomon foster To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Storyteller's name? -------- >is Kayell'no. Kyle November? > >Just more meaningless ramblings... :) I was under the impression it was Chauki November, but now I don't remember why I thought that. -Sol **************** Mon, 01 Nov 93 10:37:30 EST **************** From: wesley mcdermott To: continuing-time@umich.edu, sef@kithrup.com Subject: Re: Prophet Harry -------- Hmm... I thought the Last Dancer credits said something about Harry; I had the (probably mistaken) impression that it was derived from somebody's RPG or book. (: Wesley **************** Mon, 1 Nov 93 11:18:16 EST **************** From: mike long To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Short Stories Reply-To: Mike Long -------- I was at my parent's house last night for my sister's birthday, so I picked up my old Asimov's and did some digging. Here's some more info on the short stories that DKM had published in Asimov's (aka IAsfm) in the early 80's: "All the Time in the World", May 1982. As mentioned in Solomon's intro, this is the first section of _The Armageddon Blues_, which was also named All the Time in the World. I haven't *really* looked, but I don't think there are any significant differences between the short story version and what was included in the book. "The Gray Maelstrom", February 1983. This very short story is, in fact, related to DKM's Great Wheel of Existence, although probably not to the Continuing Time. It gives some more detail on what the Flame people know as the spacelace tunnels; in fact, the description of the lines and spheres in LD looks like it was cut-and-pasted from this story. Others may not think much of it, but I think it was a powerful little story, and the consequences of what happens to Joel Gray (the main character) could bear some exploring... "Realtime", August 1984. I don't have anything to add here, except to say that this was another great story. -- Mike Long Mike.Long@Analog.com VLSI Design Engineer voice: (617)461-4030 Analog Devices, SPD Div. FAX: (617)461-3010 Norwood, MA 02062 *this = !opinion(Analog); **************** Mon, 01 Nov 93 12:49:20 EST **************** From: solomon foster To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Short Stories -------- Mike Long writes: >Here's some more info on the short stories that DKM had published in >Asimov's (aka IAsfm) in the early 80's: > >"All the Time in the World", May 1982. As mentioned in Solomon's >intro, this is the first section of _The Armageddon Blues_, which was >also named All the Time in the World. I haven't *really* looked, but >I don't think there are any significant differences between the short >story version and what was included in the book. Actually, as I recall, the last page is quite different --- in the story, the last page is set way beyond the end of AB the book. Other than that, I think the only differences were cosmetic improvements. >"The Gray Maelstrom", February 1983. This very short story is, in >fact, related to DKM's Great Wheel of Existence, although probably not >to the Continuing Time. It gives some more detail on what the Flame >people know as the spacelace tunnels; in fact, the description of the >lines and spheres in LD looks like it was cut-and-pasted from this >story. Others may not think much of it, but I think it was a powerful >little story, and the consequences of what happens to Joel Gray (the >main character) could bear some exploring... Maybe I just need to read it again . . . -Sol **************** Mon, 1 Nov 93 14:07 EST **************** From: "josh kaderlan" To: continuing-time@umich.edu, sef@kithrup.com, wmcd@mit.edu Subject: Re: Prophet Harry -------- In the Author's Note to tLD, DKM thanks to Dr. Death for letting him use the Prophet Harry. I *think* Dr. Death is one of DKM's sisters (from my shady memory of EE), but I wouldn't swear to it. Or perhaps Dr. Death is really Belinda Singer in real life. Anyone know of a Belinda Singer? Josh **************** Mon, 1 Nov 93 0:05:39 PST **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: another tLD question -------- In "The Tricentenniel Summer," chapter 20, towards the end, Camber tells Denice that she has three options: becoming a Dancer, becoming a nightface, or "his path." "Sedon nearly chose that way; but fear took him, and he failed." Perhaps I'm being dense, but does anybody have any idea what Camber meant as "his path"? Sean. **************** Mon, 1 Nov 93 10:57:16 EST **************** From: mike long To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Storyteller's name? Reply-To: Mike Long -------- >Date: Sun, 31 Oct 93 16:23:30 EST >From: Solomon Foster > >>is Kayell'no. Kyle November? >> >>Just more meaningless ramblings... :) > >I was under the impression it was Chauki November, but now I >don't remember why I thought that. > > -Sol At some point (I don't remember where, but I think it might have been when he was talking to Trent through Corona) Storyteller gives his full name, and it is something like Chauki. -- Mike Long Mike.Long@Analog.com VLSI Design Engineer voice: (617)461-4030 Analog Devices, SPD Div. FAX: (617)461-3010 Norwood, MA 02062 *this = !opinion(Analog); **************** Mon, 1 Nov 93 14:05 EST **************** From: "josh kaderlan" To: continuing-time@umich.edu, sef@kithrup.com Subject: Re: another tLD question -------- >In "The Tricentenniel Summer," chapter 20, towards the end, Camber tells >Denice that she has three options: becoming a Dancer, becoming a nightface, >or "his path." "Sedon nearly chose that way; but fear took him, and he >failed." >Perhaps I'm being dense, but does anybody have any idea what Camber meant >as "his path"? I took this to mean that Camber's path was to become a god, as he became one of the ten gods in the Flame People's temple. Just my $.02. Here's another question (maybe *I'm* just being dense): What did Sedon hope to achieve through the Tricentennial Rebellion? Ring says that Sedon is the best hope it's seen for the liberation of the U.S., but nobody else seems to think that the rebels have much of a chance. And, indeed, they don't. Was Sedon just blind to the truth? Or was the rebellion *designed* to fail? Help! Josh **************** Mon, 1 Nov 1993 14:17:59 -0500 **************** From: chris siebenmann To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: another tLD question -------- The best theory I have is that Sedon told Ring about his plans to use atomic blackmail, and that Ring thought it would work. What puzzles me about this is that Sedon got what he needed to get the bombs (namely David) only after Ring makes the statement. - cks **************** Mon, 1 Nov 93 11:31:10 PST **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: another tLD question -------- >What did Sedon hope >to achieve through the Tricentennial Rebellion? Eventually, world domination. Thence to organize and prepare for the sleem. >Ring says that Sedon is the >best hope it's seen for the liberation of the U.S., but nobody else seems to >think that the rebels have much of a chance. And, indeed, they don't. Was >Sedon just blind to the truth? Or was the rebellion *designed* to fail? Almost nobody knew that Sedon had 22 warheads. Ring found that using atomic weapons gave the rebellion a chance. (However, Trent says that the PKF undoubtedly thought of that, as well, and had made plans... and Ring failed before against the Unification.) Those warheads are still out there, aren't they... Sean. **************** Mon, 1 Nov 93 11:28:03 PST **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: another tLD question -------- > The best theory I have is that Sedon told Ring about his plans to use >atomic blackmail, and that Ring thought it would work. What puzzles me >about this is that Sedon got what he needed to get the bombs (namely >David) only after Ring makes the statement. This is almost given; note that Trent says he knows of one way to get a chance, but that he thought of that way scares him. Sedon, unlike almost every other person then and there, had no compunctions against using nuclear weapons. So he probably suggested it to Ring. He planned on getting them from the Japanese; I suspect that David just made things easier (otherwise, he would have, I assume, Spoken to one or more of the Japanese, or stolen, or blackmailed, or some other method). Ring almost certainly knew about the truth the entire time; I don't think it would have gotten involved in a plan that would result in the deaths of millions of people -- *Americans* -- if it did not see a reasonable chance of success. And, unlike human people, Sedon could not Speak to Ring. As it is, I am *very* curious to find out more about post-revolution Ring. Given how much damage he caused to Americans, if it were human, I would have expected a massive emotional breakdown. It'll be interesting to see how Ring handles it. (Especially since the AI Wars are coming up soon...) Sean. **************** Mon, 1 Nov 1993 14:27:39 -0500 **************** From: mkr@fid.morgan.com (mike rosenberg) To: continuing-time@umich.edu, cks@hawkwind.utcs.toronto.edu Subject: Re: another tLD question -------- >Here's another question (maybe *I'm* just being dense): What did Sedon hope >to achieve through the Tricentennial Rebellion? Ring says that Sedon is the >best hope it's seen for the liberation of the U.S., but nobody else seems to >think that the rebels have much of a chance. And, indeed, they don't. Was >Sedon just blind to the truth? Or was the rebellion *designed* to fail? >Help! this is interesting. dkm sort of left us dangling on that particular subject didn't he. mike **************** Mon, 1 Nov 93 14:36:42 EST **************** From: john bykowski To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: sedon's plans -------- I remember sedon explaining that he wanted the planet to be prepared for an invasion by the sleem. This statement was meant to justify his use of nuclear weapons, and I believe that to some extent, it does. He knows how powerful the sleem are, and with a united America under his command, he could put together the resources to make a stand, wheras the UN has no idea what they've stumbled upon. We may know that the war with the slem starts around 2111, but he doesn't. It's not all that far away from 2076, so they've little time to prepare. If Sedon explained the whole theory to Ring, it would realize the danger and get behind someone that can and will try to do something about it. I remember Ring saying "the salient feature of America...lies in the assumption that humans are wise enough to control their own lives." (p.186) The sleem's policy of shutting off further expansion would seem to limit humans' abilities to do so; the AI war may then be an attempt by Ring to gain personal control to further that end. (of course, this is all sheer speculation - the AI war may just be about Ring and Ralph trying to do each other in.) **************** Mon, 1 Nov 1993 14:38:04 -0500 **************** From: chris siebenmann To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: another tLD question -------- Perhaps Ring has a breakdown from the events of the revolution (maybe it lashes out at the other AIs for not helping it), and this is what brings about the AI Wars? Or do we know roughly what the sides are in the AI Wars, and the sides make this implausible? - cks **************** Mon, 1 Nov 1993 14:41:34 -0500 **************** From: chris siebenmann To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: another tLD question -------- | Those warheads are still out there, aren't they... Mohammed Vance mentions to the ex-commander of the PKF that they captured them, loaded onto ready semiballistics. Indeed, Vance rants somewhat incoherently about how this is a first for the opposition to the Unification, although I can't help think that Vance's own readyness to use tactical nuclear weapons has something to blame for this as well. - cks **************** Mon, 1 Nov 1993 14:46:47 -0500 **************** From: chris siebenmann To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Ring vs Ralf and the AI Wars -------- | (of course, this is all sheer speculation - the AI war may just be | about Ring and Ralph trying to do each other in.) Ralf didn't sound like he wanted to tangle with Ring, and Ring didn't recognize Ralf the last time the two met; I suspect they won't be fighting unless Ralf has to. DKM seems to present Ring as something that no single AI could or would tackle on its own. - cks **************** Mon, 1 Nov 93 14:50:29 EST **************** From: mike long To: continuing-time@umich.edu, sef@kithrup.com Subject: Re: another tLD question Reply-To: Mike Long -------- >Date: Mon, 1 Nov 93 11:31:10 PST >From: sef@kithrup.com > >Almost nobody knew that Sedon had 22 warheads. Ring found that using >atomic weapons gave the rebellion a chance. (However, Trent says that >the PKF undoubtedly thought of that, as well, and had made plans... and >Ring failed before against the Unification.) > >Those warheads are still out there, aren't they... No, they're not. In Vance's last conversation with Mirabeau (I think), he tells her that the PKF recovered 22 SBs with fusion warheads in them when San Diego was retaken. >Sean. -- Mike Long Mike.Long@Analog.com VLSI Design Engineer voice: (617)461-4030 Analog Devices, SPD Div. FAX: (617)461-3010 Norwood, MA 02062 *this = !opinion(Analog); **************** Mon, 01 Nov 93 16:22:49 EST **************** From: solomon foster To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: another tLD question -------- Sean writes: >Chris Siebenmann writes: >> The best theory I have is that Sedon told Ring about his plans to use >>atomic blackmail, and that Ring thought it would work. What puzzles me >>about this is that Sedon got what he needed to get the bombs (namely >>David) only after Ring makes the statement. > >This is almost given; note that Trent says he knows of one way to get >a chance, but that he thought of that way scares him. > >Sedon, unlike almost every other person then and there, had no compunctions >against using nuclear weapons. So he probably suggested it to Ring. He >planned on getting them from the Japanese; I suspect that David just made >things easier (otherwise, he would have, I assume, Spoken to one or more >of the Japanese, or stolen, or blackmailed, or some other method). My guess is that Ring was using Sedon. Ring is smart enough to know that the PKF will be ready to deal with nukes. As a result of forcing the issue, martial law has been declared. In the short run, this is no doubt bad for the cause; but in the long run, it is going to cause a lot more dissent. When you factor in the evidence that the PKF is mortal (all the dead Elite, for example), this will set the stage for a successful revolution. Supporting evidence: I don't think Sedon's goals coincided with Ring's at all. Both wanted to topple the UN, but for very different reasons. I think Sedon would be fundamently opposed to the kind of government Ring is fundamently in favor of. There was every possibility for a much stronger revolution. Remember the training while pretending to film a sensible? Callia (I think) comments how stupid this is, and I agree, _if_ you are trying to run a successful revolution. It's ideal for a flop, though. Likewise no serious attempt is made to bring the CityStates into the picture. Ring doesn't call in the favor Trent owes him. The whole thing is pushed foward for purely symbolic reasons. None of this makes a lot of sense, if you assume Ring wanted to win. If you assume it wanted to make a stir with a failed revolution, it is brilliant. -Sol **************** Mon, 01 Nov 1993 13:23:24 -0800 (PST) Date-Warning: Date header was inserted by OREGON.UOREGON.EDU **************** From: dcutter@oregon.uoregon.edu (dann cutter) To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Ring vrs. the Unification -------- Humm.. if RING is a powerful and all controlling as DKM makes him, it would seem he could singlehandedly screw up the PFK pretty badly. I mean he could fake troop deployment, he could cause small 'accidents' which would hadly be tracable. I think Ring is not ready yet. Trent hinted maybe at this when he wouldn't let the net go down... even though it might have made the difference in the war. I think the whole america rebellion didn't work to well. It seems ring pretty much had little to do with it, and not much stategic planning really went into it. I mean, the Unification is based on the east coast, then why attack cali? Maybe DKM need to have more stategy in the war plots... really obvious that the Unification would win, I mean, Japan was a great distraction, but... Anyways, still no luck getting the RING. Anybody want to sell me a copy? :-) _______________________________________________________________ Dann Cutter Stellar Enterprises=81 / dcutter@oregon.uoregon.edu **************** Tue, 2 Nov 1993 09:27:48 +0800 (WST) **************** From: greg wheatley To: continuing-time@umich.edu, sef@kithrup.com Subject: Re: another tLD question -------- > > In "The Tricentenniel Summer," chapter 20, towards the end, Camber tells > Denice that she has three options: becoming a Dancer, becoming a nightface, > or "his path." "Sedon nearly chose that way; but fear took him, and he > failed." > > Perhaps I'm being dense, but does anybody have any idea what Camber meant > as "his path"? > > Sean. > Well from my memory of that bit, Camber said Denice could choose to become a Dancer or a Nightface and that failing to choose would result in her death. He added after this that she might also choose his path, but that this was unlikely. It may well be that his is the path that leads to godhood, but my opinion is that this path involves choosing to become both a Dancer and a nightface. This is remembering that earlier on Camber says that both he and the Name Storyteller are nightfaces. Regards, Greg -- * "The quickest way to a man's heart is between the fourth and * * fifth ribs, angled upwards." * * taliesin@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au * ******************************************************************* **************** Mon, 1 Nov 93 21:10 EST **************** From: "josh kaderlan" To: continuing-time@umich.edu, colomon@eecs.umich.edu Subject: Re: another tLD question -------- >My guess is that Ring was using Sedon. Ring is smart enough to >know that the PKF will be ready to deal with nukes. As a result of >forcing the issue, martial law has been declared. In the short run, >this is no doubt bad for the cause; but in the long run, it is going >to cause a lot more dissent. When you factor in the evidence that the >PKF is mortal (all the dead Elite, for example), this will set the >stage for a successful revolution. >Supporting evidence: > I don't think Sedon's goals coincided with Ring's >at all. Both wanted to topple the UN, but for very different reasons. >I think Sedon would be fundamently opposed to the kind of government >Ring is fundamently in favor of. > There was every possibility for a much stronger revolution. >Remember the training while pretending to film a sensible? Callia (I >think) comments how stupid this is, and I agree, _if_ you are trying >to run a successful revolution. It's ideal for a flop, though. Likewise >no serious attempt is made to bring the CityStates into the picture. >Ring doesn't call in the favor Trent owes him. The whole thing is >pushed foward for purely symbolic reasons. None of this makes a lot >of sense, if you assume Ring wanted to win. If you assume it wanted >to make a stir with a failed revolution, it is brilliant. Right, so it makes sense from Ring's POV, but what about Sedon? The nukes have to shift the balance somewhat, making it more likely that Sedon would win, but as I remember it, the PKF swept through L.A. pretty easily. Seems to me that Sedon wasn't nearly as prepared as he should have been, and he just doesn't seem to be that stupid to me. Trent says that it would take a hell of a lot for Sedon to win, and that the Rebs and the Claw just don't have the backing for a successful rebellion. Oh well, at least we've found another issue to debate. :) Josh another issue to debate. :) "Opinions? What are those?" **************** Mon, 01 Nov 93 22:08:10 EST **************** From: solomon foster To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: another tLD question -------- Josh Kaderlan writes: >Sol writes: >> There was every possibility for a much stronger revolution. >>Remember the training while pretending to film a sensible? Callia (I >>think) comments how stupid this is, and I agree, _if_ you are trying >>to run a successful revolution. It's ideal for a flop, though. Likewise >>no serious attempt is made to bring the CityStates into the picture. >>Ring doesn't call in the favor Trent owes him. The whole thing is >>pushed foward for purely symbolic reasons. None of this makes a lot >>of sense, if you assume Ring wanted to win. If you assume it wanted >>to make a stir with a failed revolution, it is brilliant. > >Right, so it makes sense from Ring's POV, but what about Sedon? The nukes >have to shift the balance somewhat, making it more likely that Sedon would >win, but as I remember it, the PKF swept through L.A. pretty easily. Seems >to me that Sedon wasn't nearly as prepared as he should have been, and he >just doesn't seem to be that stupid to me. Trent says that it would take a >hell of a lot for Sedon to win, and that the Rebs and the Claw just don't >have the backing for a successful rebellion. Oh well, at least we've found >another issue to debate. :) I think Sedon, while smart, is out of his depth. In particular, would he expect a computer to deceive him? My guess is that Sedon relied heavily on computer simulations (as everyone in this world seems to do) for decision making, and Ring faked the numbers. (As for why other humans would go along, when one of your side's biggest assests is the world's most powerful program, you tend to assume it isn't lying to you.) -Sol **************** Mon, 1 Nov 1993 22:41:20 -0500 **************** From: chris siebenmann To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Trent and Ring and so on -------- I never got a clear feeling for why Trent went to the space station in the first place -- to prevent the Earth Datanet being crashed? To do strange things to it himself? - cks **************** Mon, 1 Nov 93 22:25:44 PST **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Mr. Barnes, did you read this book? -------- >I've got a little question. Who's the other heroine? Callia, I suspect. (I had to work that out when I reread tLD this weekend...) Sean. **************** Mon, 1 Nov 93 13:13:49 PST **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: another tLD question -------- > Perhaps Ring has a breakdown from the events of the revolution >(maybe it lashes out at the other AIs for not helping it), and this >is what brings about the AI Wars? > Or do we know roughly what the sides are in the AI Wars, and the >sides make this implausible? I think the best clue we have is something Trent said in tLD. He made a comment about not wanting to be around if the AIs declared war on DataWatch... so I think that's what the AI wars is going to be about. Note that in DKM's timeline, it's called "The AI War", not wars. The AI War happens 20 years before the revolution (and, incidently, I think that the revolution is sparked by Trent's death, but we'll see; DKM said that book one of Players would come out in '94, and that book one and book two would be published nearly back to back...); I think DataWatch gets taken down by the AIs, Ripper and Denice cause the AIs (and probably genies in general) to be granted citeznship, and Ripper then becomes a Major Political Force. (At the end of tLD, he is hampered by the fact that Eddore is going to be Secretary General for as long as he can forsee... But I suspect at least part of his downfall will come from the publication of his involvement in the rebellion and with Trent...) I WANT ANOTHER DKM BOOK!!! :) Sean. **************** Tue, 2 Nov 1993 10:50:34 +0800 (WST) **************** From: andrew bailey To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Ring vrs the unification -------- Hmm, I had a thought. How do we know that sec-gen eddore was the only party to not want the infonet to go down. Perhaps ring aloso contacted Trent Perhaps it was just Ring who did It as he may not have been ready( as someone else on this list said) especially as he may not have really wanted the revolution to succeed. If he arranged the troop movements by sending bogus orders to space force then it would have been overlooked in the aftermath. If the net had gone down Eddore quite probably would not mind that much as his power could be much stronger proviede datawach won the ensuing battle and he had a good control over data watch. ZFor more explanation on how the media contrtols a nation see chompsky. And yes I know this sounds like a conspiacy theory but what the hey. The Acolyte PS I wonder if the Church of thge sub-Genius is around in 207? if so how would the react to the sleem? -- I'm just a hard working corporate slave | My mind should hate what my body does crave| I'm just a humble corporate slave | Working my way to a corporate grave - Snog| acolyte@tartarus.uwa.edu.au **************** Tue, 2 Nov 93 0:48:59 EST **************** From: john bykowski To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Mr. Barnes, did you read this book? -------- " Filled with gods, two VERY memorable heroines..." - Stephen Barnes, on the back cover. I've got a little question. Who's the other heroine? I think she must have been left out of my copy, because I did't see one, and I assume that either Mr. Barnes or the publishing company would have read the book, because it would be incredibly stupid to write a blurb on a book you haven't really read, or to print a blurb containing such a mistake on the back cover of said book. So, as you see, my copy must have been deficient. Could anyone describe this other heroine to me? She must have been the interesting, three-dimensional one my copy lacked. **************** Tue, 02 Nov 93 12:58:45 EST **************** From: wesley mcdermott To: continuing-time@umich.edu, chris siebenmann Subject: Re: Trent's why's and wherefore's -------- I figured that Trent went to the space station to: a) hold the net steady as he claimed, b) talk to Denice and maybe convince her personally to go outbound with him if the opportunity presented itself. (: Wesley **************** Tue, 2 Nov 93 10:10:40 PST **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Trent's why's and wherefore's -------- >I figured that Trent went to the space station to: >a) hold the net steady as he claimed, >b) talk to Denice and maybe convince her personally to go outbound with >him if the opportunity presented itself. Unlikely, as it seemed pretty clear he really didn't know about what Michelle was going to do. There are several things to consider about that section. First of all, Trent is a thief; also, he is dedicated to overthrowing the Unification (not because he thinks it's a wrong idea, but because the Unification is going *bad*). Also, consider Storyteller's story about Ifahad and Hiding -- that running away can be as strong a political statement as anything else. Eddore got the ability for the rebellion to happen out of it. Trent got *at least* a chance to snub the PKF again, a chance to *hurt* them. Presumably, he also stole something; what, I don't know. He also got reunited with Jimmy, although I am pretty sure that was a complete accident (it only happened because Denice attacked Sedon, and Jimmy was there, and didn't attack her, therefore he had to leave with Denice, and nobody could have predicted that Denice would have attacked *then*, and the only reason they went to Chandler's place was because Chandler was the first person Ring got in touch with, etc.). I also suspect that Eddore offered Trent a chance to get rid of Vance, or at least make him less of a threat (remember, they're both terrified of Vance). But I still can't picture Trent doing anything to help the rebellion, given how many people died in it. (However, the crashed InfoNet gave even worse numbers...) I still want another DKM novel :(. Sean. **************** Tue, 02 Nov 93 19:33:32 EST **************** From: solomon foster To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Back of Last Dancer -------- Traveller In Black writes: >" Filled with gods, two VERY memorable heroines..." - Stephen Barnes, on >the back cover. >I've got a little question. Who's the other heroine? I think she must >have been left out of my copy, because I did't see one, and I assume >that either Mr. Barnes or the publishing company would have read the >book, because it would be incredibly stupid to write a blurb on a book >you haven't really read, or to print a blurb containing such a mistake >on the back cover of said book. Well, Barnes is listed as one of the experts on the dedication page, so I suspect he did read the book. (Though, looking at his blurb, I also wonder what "E.T.'s" and "genocide" refer to.) Probably he wrote "two heroes", as I might have. (Or he knows something about Ralf that we don't.) On the other hand, I have no trouble believing the publishers missed that. At the moment, I'm feeling more than a little cynical about Bantam Spectra. After months (even years) of actively searching out ads for the book, I never saw one. Each of Moran's previous paperbacks got a full page ad in IAsfm; if Last Dancer got one anywhere, I missed it. They sat on the book for more than a year; they let the previous ones, obviously still in demand, go out of print; they didn't advertise for this one; and, if the local bookstore is any sign, they're not pushing it. The author's note is messed up; why not the quotes on the back of the book? -Sol **************** Tue, 02 Nov 93 22:36:33 EST **************** From: solomon foster To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Camber -------- Okay, I've started re-reading the Last Dancer, and I'll be posting interesting things I find on the second time through. (Hey, this is much more interesting than differential manifolds.) LD, p53: Camber: "if you see me again it will be in the Other Place; and in that place I am a different order of person. As you have learned, I will not always recognize you there." Is this possibly the distinction between Camber and the Nameless One? LD, p52: "In the place where his face should have been was a featureless dark gray mist the color of slate." Contrast this with LR, p34: "The man had eyes as black as a Peaceforcer's heart, flat black with no whites in them, no internal structure at all." The relationship between Camber and Yo is much stronger than that between Camber and Devlin. So why does Devlin get to see Camber's face? Also, this got me thinking a bit about Storyteller. He is the narrator thoughout, right? So everything we learn about Camber is filtered through Storyteller's tale . . . -Sol **************** Tue, 2 Nov 93 22:43:45 -0800 **************** From: durrell@netcom.com (bryant durrell) To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Names and Significance -------- A thought which struck me tonight -- Sedon. Dvan. Satan? Divine? Or am I reading too much into a simple coincidence? Oh, and yeah, Dr. Death is presumably his sister, since TLR is dedicated to a Doctor Death who's his sister. One assumes the man doesn't have two Dr. Deaths in his life. Bryant **************** Wed, 03 Nov 1993 06:56:27 CST **************** From: "ian sutherland" To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Names and Significance -------- On Tue, 2 Nov 93 22:43:45 -0800, "Bryant Durrell" wrote: > A thought which struck me tonight -- > > Sedon. Dvan. Satan? Divine? > > Or am I reading too much into a simple coincidence? Does Sedon really seem that Satanic to you, or Dvan that divine? Certainly Denice didn't seem to see things as being that black and white. -- Ian Sutherland Key Software, Inc. ian@chicago.keysoft.com (708)864-1596 **************** Wed, 03 Nov 93 09:24:55 EST **************** From: wesley mcdermott To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Names and Significance -------- Well, DKM references "the book False Prophets" explicitly for the Prophet Harry - does DKM's sister write? (: Wesley **************** Wed, 3 Nov 93 08:25:04 -0800 **************** From: durrell@netcom.com (bryant durrell) To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Names and Significance -------- Ian says: >Does Sedon really seem that Satanic to you, or Dvan that divine? >Certainly Denice didn't seem to see things as being that black and >white. No, not really, but I'm considering their places in Earth human history as well. Sedon brought civilization to Earth, neh? Which would seem to slot him into the role of Lightbringer, or Lucifer. He's the Snake in the Garden, quite clearly. Dvan is less obvious, and I don't like that correspondence as much, but I rank it as a possible. It's also worth noting that Satan isn't necessarily a black and white figure. If I believed in the Christian mythos, I wouldn't find him purely evil, and it's even easier to create a sympathetic character of him in a fictional world. Steven Brust's _To Reign In Hell_ is a great example. Bryant **************** Tue, 2 Nov 93 19:52:30 PST **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Camber -------- I suspect the answer to: >LD, p53: Camber: "if you see me again it will be in the Other Place; and >in that place I am a different order of person. As you have learned, I >will not always recognize you there." >Is this possibly the distinction between Camber and the Nameless One? and: >The relationship between Camber and Yo is much stronger than that >between Camber and Devlin. So why does Devlin get to see Camber's face? is the same, namely, that Camber is a time traveler, and he has changed, as subjective time goes by. The "Other Place," I assume, is the crystal plain that the telepaths can enter, but that's not necessarily true. >Also, this got me thinking a bit about Storyteller. He is the narrator >thoughout, right? So everything we learn about Camber is filtered >through Storyteller's tale . . . Yes. And Storyteller himself claims that facts get in the way of telling a Story. (On the other hand, we have quotes from the Name Historian at various points, which provide some other glimpses...) But I think we can take it all as "true"... Oh, and _The Long Run_ is, I think, not narrated by Storyteller. Sean. **************** Wed, 3 Nov 93 01:26 EST **************** From: "josh kaderlan" To: continuing-time@umich.edu, colomon@eecs.umich.edu Subject: Re: Back of Last Dancer -------- >Well, Barnes is listed as one of the experts on the dedication page, so >I suspect he did read the book. (Though, looking at his blurb, I also >wonder what "E.T.'s" and "genocide" refer to.) Probably he wrote "two >heroes", as I might have. (Or he knows something about Ralf that we >don't.) The genocide might be a reference to the Shield's extermination of the Neanderthals; it isn't clear to what extent the Shield were successful. >On the other hand, I have no trouble believing the publishers missed >that. At the moment, I'm feeling more than a little cynical about >Bantam Spectra. After months (even years) of actively searching out ads >for the book, I never saw one. Each of Moran's previous paperbacks got >a full page ad in IAsfm; if Last Dancer got one anywhere, I missed it. >They sat on the book for more than a year; they let the previous ones, >obviously still in demand, go out of print; they didn't advertise for >this one; and, if the local bookstore is any sign, they're not pushing >it. The author's note is messed up; why not the quotes on the back of >the book? I went to my friendly neighborhood independent bookseller today, and this is what happened: I ask the guy behind the desk if they've got a copy of Books in Print. He says yes, on CD-ROM. I ask him to look up EE, and lo and behold, there it is. So he calls Bantam. After a little telephone tag, he gets through to someone to check on distribution. *Off the top of her head*, the woman on the phone says that it's not in print. Thanks, Bantam. Josh **************** Wed, 03 Nov 1993 12:33:41 -0500 **************** From: solomon foster To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Camber -------- >I suspect the answer to: > >>LD, p53: Camber: "if you see me again it will be in the Other Place; and >>in that place I am a different order of person. As you have learned, I >>will not always recognize you there." >>Is this possibly the distinction between Camber and the Nameless One? > >and: > >>The relationship between Camber and Yo is much stronger than that >>between Camber and Devlin. So why does Devlin get to see Camber's face? > >is the same, namely, that Camber is a time traveler, and he has changed, >as subjective time goes by. I agree, but it seems like he would probably have done his work in that time at roughly the same time on his personal timeline . . . >The "Other Place," I assume, is the crystal plain that the telepaths can >enter, but that's not necessarily true. But why would Camber not recognize Yo there? (Maybe because Camber is _not_ a telepath naturally?) And how would Yo get there to see Camber? >>Also, this got me thinking a bit about Storyteller. He is the narrator >>thoughout, right? So everything we learn about Camber is filtered >>through Storyteller's tale . . . > >Yes. And Storyteller himself claims that facts get in the way of telling >a Story. (On the other hand, we have quotes from the Name Historian >at various points, which provide some other glimpses...) Though of course, we must assume that Storyteller chooses the quotes . . . >Oh, and _The Long Run_ is, I think, not narrated by Storyteller. I beg to differ. Not only is the epilogue to LR explicitly Storyteller, but there is nothing in the text which Storyteller couldn't have known or guessed. In particular, this why we never learn whether Trent walked through the wall or not --- Storyteller simply doesn't know. -Sol **************** Tue, 2 Nov 93 20:32:07 PST **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Camber -------- > I tend to think of anything not explicitly narrated by someone >as being omnisciently correct; most other ways lead (IMHO) to >madness. No doubt one could waffle about what exactly a section >is and how explicit Moran is about marking narrators. I disagree completely. It is pretty obvious, to me, that both EE and tLD are narrated by the Name Storyteller. The only flaw in EE, with that respect, is too much knowledge about what Trent is doing, although I guess Storyteller could have been, uhm, Telling a Story :). The main reason I say that _The Long Run_ isn't narrated by Storyteller is because he says he never knew Trent, which would be necessary if he were Telling that Story. _The Last Dancer_, however, only shows Trent through Corona's eyes -- and Corona is one of Storyteller's avatars. (Hm... does that mean that what's-her-name, the singer, is an avatar as well?) Bear in mind that Storyteller is a telepath, so he could read minds to get any missing information... Since Storyteller *is* telling the story, it doesn't really matter. Except that Moran has given himself an out for minor inconsistencies... Sean. **************** Wed, 3 Nov 93 12:40:11 PST **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: some more thoughts about tLD -------- Re Sedon and the rebellion: Sedon says, I forget to whom (my copy of the book is at home, I'm at work) that it's likely they'll need, at most, to hit three or four cities with the nukes. I suspect those cities would be really major ones to the Unification -- what is the Unification going to do after all of their high officials have been vaporized? Oh, well, we'll never know now :). Also: the Keepers of the Flame, maybe all of the Flame People (or, more accurately, the ones we care about, such as the Dancers, the Keepers, and the Shields) were mildly telepathic. Unlike Denice, however, they needed to *touch*. Sedon says that the Keepers touched him so when he was consecrated, when Denice first tries to read his mind, and Saliya touches Dvan at one point, and there is a comment about their nervous systems joining, or somesuch. And, lastly, there is a comment about Sedon having (almost?) complete control over his nervous system -- and we got to see Denice do that, completely untrained, during her interview for Ripper. Although I think she did it differently than the Dancers did... Sean. **************** Wed, 3 Nov 1993 13:40:37 -0800 (PST) **************** From: simon cardinale To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: The Long Run -------- (off the subject in the extreme) tLR once quotes someone named "Denice Ripper", so I guess they eventually DO get maried (disappointing, non?) **************** Wed, 3 Nov 93 13:45:56 PST **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: The Long Run -------- >tLR once quotes someone named "Denice Ripper", so I guess they eventually >DO get maried (disappointing, non?) Even before that, in _Emerald Eyes_, Storyteller makes some comment about David and Denice -- yes the Denice Ripper from whom our line is descended... And we saw Ripper in EE. So we knew even then that that was going to happen... And then one of the chapters in _Players_ is "The Telepath, the Politician, and the Thief." Wonder how Ripper is going to react to finding out Denice is a telepath and known associate of Trent the Uncatchable? :) Sean. **************** Wed, 03 Nov 93 23:12:47 EST **************** From: wesley mcdermott To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Denice, training -------- I thought when Denice did her little stunt of controlling her nervous system that she said she learned it from her father (or at least the calming techniques it was based on)... (: Wesley **************** Wed, 3 Nov 93 20:16:07 PST **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Denice, training -------- >I thought when Denice did her little stunt of controlling >her nervous system that she said she learned it from her father >(or at least the calming techniques it was based on)... No, two seperate things. The calming she did either to relax, or, more likely, to prepare for doing it. When she actually manipulated her nervous system, I think she was partially on the crystal plain, looking at her own nervous system. Sean. **************** Thu, 4 Nov 1993 13:33:37 +0800 (WST) **************** From: andrew mccoll To: continuing-time@umich.edu, colomon@eecs.umich.edu, josh kaderlan Subject: Re: Back of Last Dancer -------- On Wed, 3 Nov 1993, Josh Kaderlan wrote: > The genocide might be a reference to the Shield's extermination of the > Neanderthals; it isn't clear to what extent the Shield were successful. I wondered about this when Dvan said something like you are our children and you are completely insane. Or something like that. Is it not possible to blame humanities insanity on the shields extermination program? If they had not gone round killing off anyone who used language or tools for 10,000 years perhaps humans would have turned out differently. By the way has anyone got any theories on whether Dvan is still alive or not? Andrew McColl skippy@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au **************** Thu, 4 Nov 1993 01:05:55 -0800 (PST) **************** From: simon cardinale To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Back of Last Dancer -------- On Thu, 4 Nov 1993, Andrew McColl wrote: > On Wed, 3 Nov 1993, Josh Kaderlan wrote: > > > The genocide might be a reference to the Shield's extermination of the > > Neanderthals; it isn't clear to what extent the Shield were successful. > > I wondered about this when Dvan said something like you are our children > and you are completely insane. Or something like that. Is it not > possible to blame humanities insanity on the shields extermination > program? If they had not gone round killing off anyone who used language > or tools for 10,000 years perhaps humans would have turned out > differently. By the way has anyone got any theories on whether Dvan is > still alive or not? > Sure, humanity would have achieved a lot more given a few thousand years head start. And I'd say Dvan's still around. Moran is anything but sloppy with loose ends. If it looks loose it'll come back next book. **************** Thu, 4 Nov 1993 20:25:47 +1100 (EST) **************** From: tong@numbat.cs.rmit.oz.au (simon tong) To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Denice Ripper ? -------- > tLR once quotes someone named "Denice Ripper", so I guess they eventually > DO get maried (disappointing, non?) There is a minor character in EE called Doug Ripper, who is a politician. He was alos mentioned at least once in tLR. Reading the author's note at the end of EE, I think DKM may have great things installed for him. **************** Thu, 4 Nov 93 20:02:11 -0600 **************** From: "brian wells/dave brodek" To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Back of Last Dancer -------- > On Wed, 3 Nov 1993, Josh Kaderlan wrote: > ... By the way has anyone got any theories on whether Dvan is > > still alive or not? > > > Sure, humanity would have achieved a lot more given a few thousand years > head start. > > And I'd say Dvan's still around. Moran is anything but sloppy > with loose ends. If it looks loose it'll come back next book. -- A truism. I had absolutely forgotten Neil Corona, and look where HE is now. **************** Fri, 5 Nov 93 15:12 EST **************** From: "josh kaderlan" To: continuing-time@umich.edu, colomon@eecs.umich.edu Subject: Re: another tLD question -------- >My guess is that Ring was using Sedon. Ring is smart enough to >know that the PKF will be ready to deal with nukes. As a result of >forcing the issue, martial law has been declared. In the short run, >this is no doubt bad for the cause; but in the long run, it is going >to cause a lot more dissent. When you factor in the evidence that the >PKF is mortal (all the dead Elite, for example), this will set the >stage for a successful revolution. I don't think so; one of the characters (Trent, I think) says that the TriCentennial Revolution shows why there will never be a successful revolution on earth. Trent says that in order to win a revolution, one has to take down DataWatch and the InfoNet, and that would destroy civilization. Earth is simply far toodependent on the InfoNet. Josh **************** Fri, 05 Nov 93 22:13:41 EST **************** From: wesley mcdermott To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: "Ring's reasons" -------- Hmm... I think Ring was employing "Moon is a Harsh Mistress" psychology - you have to make things WORSE before people will work to make them better. (: Wesley **************** Fri, 5 Nov 93 21:25:50 PST **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: "Ring's reasons" -------- >(Especially since Vance >kills Trent in "Players, Book One: The AI War" . . . ) I don't think this is correct; isn't there a quote from Trent during the War with the Sleem in _The Long Run_? (Something like, "I never *ever* talk like that!") Yes, in fact, on page 15 of my copy of _The Long Run_: I never *ever* talk like that. -- Trent the Uncatchable, in conversation with the historian Corazon de Nostri, during the War with the Sleem. The War with the Sleem starts in 2111, 11 years after the end of Players. Trent, therefore, gets killed by Vance in tWwtS. Sean. **************** Sat, 6 Nov 1993 14:37:16 +0800 (WST) **************** From: greg wheatley To: continuing-time@umich.edu, sef@kithrup.com Subject: Re: "Ring's reasons" -------- > > The War with the Sleem starts in 2111, 11 years after the end of Players. > > Trent, therefore, gets killed by Vance in tWwtS. > > Sean. > Not if he gets killed by Vance in Players and then comes back, this would be a suitable thing for a god to do, and we know that he becomes one in the end (at least in the minds of millions). It wouldn't be entirely out of character for Trent to fake his own death, or for Vance to mistakenly think that he'd killed him. Trent coming back would just add to the general Trent mythos which Trent himself is always seeking to feed, and make Vance look incompetent, which Trent is also constantly trying to do. As far as I'm concerned, Trent dying in Players wouldn't prevent him from returning in tWwtS. And even that is assuming that it's the human Trent who made the statement, and not a replicant of his persona as a player. Regards, Greg -- * "The quickest way to a man's heart is between the fourth and * * fifth ribs, angled upwards." * * taliesin@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au * ******************************************************************* **************** Fri, 5 Nov 93 23:00:22 PST **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: "Ring's reasons" -------- >Not if he gets killed by Vance in Players and then comes back, I think Trent *does* come back, but he doesn't come back for a *long* time (not until the end of the Continuing Time). There is a "Return of the Ultimate Webdancer," but DKM has stated that this is *NOT* Trent -- just that a lot of people think he is. >It wouldn't be entirely out of character >for Trent to fake his own death, or for Vance to mistakenly think that he'd >killed him. No, Vance kills him, from what Moran described. However, we won't know for certain for years and years and years and years. I WANT THE NEXT DKM NOVEL TO COME OUT *NOW*! :( Oh, does everybody have a copy of the timeline DKM posted to the net, or would it be a worthwhile thing to send out to the list? Sean. **************** Sat, 06 Nov 1993 20:15:56 -0500 **************** From: solomon foster To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Trent's Death -------- Sean writes: >Greg writes: >>Not if he gets killed by Vance in Players and then comes back, > >I think Trent *does* come back, but he doesn't come back for a *long* >time (not until the end of the Continuing Time). Nope, Greg and I are right. DKM wrote (a while back): >It's not an accident, BTW, that all that setup regarding the holo theory >is there. By the time of the AI War, Mohammed Vance has figured out that >it was just a holo, and tells Trent so just before killing him. If we are to believe this, Trent is killed in the AI War, and, obviously, is back for Players Book Two. (Obviously, because it wouldn't make much sense to call it the "Trent Duology" if Trent died in the first one.) Of course, I think he'll come back later, too. Like I've said previously, Trent does the Jesus thing --- works miracles, dies, and then comes back twice. (No offense if there are any religous folk out there, just describing the general flow of Trent's life.) >>It wouldn't be entirely out of character >>for Trent to fake his own death, or for Vance to mistakenly think that he'd >>killed him. > >No, Vance kills him, from what Moran described. I don't see how you can properly kill someone who's already half AI. (Certainly it is possible to "kill" such a person without ending their life . . . ) >However, we won't know for certain for years and years and years and years. >I WANT THE NEXT DKM NOVEL TO COME OUT *NOW*! :( As far as I know, _The AI War_ is due next fall. That should be a good start . . . -Sol **************** Sun, 07 Nov 93 11:45:45 EST **************** From: wesley mcdermott To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Trent's Death -------- The statement: >It's not an accident, BTW, that all that setup regarding the holo theory >is there. By the time of the AI War, Mohammed Vance has figured out that >it was just a holo, and tells Trent so just before killing him. does NOT require Vance to kill him during the AI war; it simply requires that Vance figures it out during the AI war, and at some later time tells Trent his discovery before killing Trent. Sigh. It's sad to know that one's hero is doomed. (: Wesley **************** Sun, 7 Nov 93 9:34:38 PST **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Trent's Death -------- >Sigh. It's sad to know that one's hero is doomed. Yeah, but we already know this. There are a couple of comments in _The Long Run_ that imply this pretty heavily. The thing I really thought cute about that is that one of them, a quote by Melissa, *doesn't have a date*. So many of the other quotes have dates, but this one doesn't. I think Melissa may also be one of the early players in the Church of His Return... Sean. **************** Sun, 07 Nov 1993 17:34:39 -0500 **************** From: solomon foster To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Trent's Death -------- Wes says: >The statement: > >>It's not an accident, BTW, that all that setup regarding the holo theory >>is there. By the time of the AI War, Mohammed Vance has figured out that >>it was just a holo, and tells Trent so just before killing him. > >does NOT require Vance to kill him during the AI war; it simply >requires that Vance figures it out during the AI war, and at >some later time tells Trent his discovery before killing Trent. True, but it is highly suggestive. >Sigh. It's sad to know that one's hero is doomed. Well, we know he'll be around in one form or another at least till the war with the Sleem. That's what, at least five books? Plus when he comes back from the dead way in the future. What more do you want? (: Sol **************** Sun, 7 Nov 1993 16:04:35 -0700 **************** From: cknight@prism.nmt.edu (chris-top-her) To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Trent's Death -------- I think the flesh may die, but the copy that talked to Denice is the one that returns after his physical death... Remeber that he lept out of the satellite on an outward bound maser (laser?) beam... If he can intercept anything he might be able to reconstitute himself as Ring did... my 2 cents, Chris **************** Sun, 7 Nov 93 21:52:46 PST **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Speculation about `The Player' -------- > The next two novel due in the Continuing Time about >Post-Unification is the two part `The Player', with AI War and Revolution. Uhm, I don't think so: (From one of DKM's postings to the net, lo that long time ago) 2. The Continuing Time novel I'm currently at work on is "Lord November: The Man-Spacething War." It's set in approximately 2680, six hundred years after the Trent/Denice stories. It's another very big novel, and the first Continuing Time novel that's really *set* out in the Continuing Time. Its principal characters are Tyrel November, one of Denice Castanaver